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SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

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Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#21

Post by beagle3 »

retrac wrote: post #13
ronri19 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the vaccine causes the body to produce spike protein. The CDC emphasizes the spike protein is harmless, but this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...

It causes the body to produce it in a limited, fixed quantity in proportion to the number of viable RNA strands that make it into a cell, largely localized at the injection site. Just a guess but this probably means its risk is extremely limited. The wild virus causes this protein to be produced without check. It wouldn't just be the mRNA vaccines, anyway. The viral vector ones, as well as the inactivated virus, and…

Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers.

The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus.

What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all coming out in the last month) show is that the vaccine outcome (specific proteins) that were assumed to be inert and only prime the immune system against the virus, are actually active and damaging. That's a big difference -- and the question of whether it makes sense to vaccinate needs to rely on actual science, not "it's a vaccine so must be good and safe" ideology. It also depends on specific attributes (e.g. age, obesity, etc.)

There's an Israeli study showing myocarditis at a rate of 1:20,000 for the 16-30 age bracket, with 1:100,000 overall (all pfizer)[0] ; the US Army stats are 1:250,000 (for a mix of JNJ,Pfizer.Moderna) but I didn't find age distribution - and these are exceptionally lean and fit individuals, compared to the general population.[1]

That's just myocarditis ; it it related to what's described in this paper? I don't know. Are there any other issues? I don't know. And generally speaking, no one else does either. But because everyone gets vaccinated, we require exceptional proofs of safety. Or at least, did before 2020.

[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-betwe...

[1] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-trac...

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#22

Post by justicezyx »

Alex3917 wrote: post #5

Yeah we've known this for over 10 years, zero surprise here. There were literally popular books written saying that this would be the mechanism of action for novel coronavirus pandemics (and how to treat them) years before the current pandemic even started, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Herbal-Antivirals-Remedies-Resistant-... Here is the direct quote from the book, published in 2013: "Once receptors on these cells ar…

Is this Amazon book on herbal effects real? I am pretty familiar with Chinese traditional medicine, but their effectiveness is very dubious.

The author does not look like a medical professional either.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#23

Post by shadowgovt »

tediousdemise wrote: post #14
gameswithgo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been the clever guy hot take for a few days now. Yet millions of people are walking around vaccinated without damage, so....

Or walking around damaged, and they don’t know it yet. Didn’t it take us thousands of years to realize lead was poisonous?

It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#24

Post by jpxw »

justicezyx wrote: post #22
Alex3917 wrote: post #5

Yeah we've known this for over 10 years, zero surprise here. There were literally popular books written saying that this would be the mechanism of action for novel coronavirus pandemics (and how to treat them) years before the current pandemic even started, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Herbal-Antivirals-Remedies-Resistant-... Here is the direct quote from the book, published in 2013: "Once receptors on these cells ar…

Is this Amazon book on herbal effects real? I am pretty familiar with Chinese traditional medicine, but their effectiveness is very dubious. The author does not look like a medical professional either.

It’s unscientific nonsense, don’t waste your time.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#25

Post by maxerickson »

beagle3 wrote: post #21
retrac wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It causes the body to produce it in a limited, fixed quantity in proportion to the number of viable RNA strands that make it into a cell, largely localized at the injection site. Just a guess but this probably means its risk is extremely limited. The wild virus causes this protein to be produced without check. It wouldn't just be the mRNA vaccines, anyway. The viral vector ones, as well as the inactivated virus, and…

Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers. The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus. What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all co…

We are getting close to 2% of the planet having a confirmed case.

New influenza vaccines (using cell lines) were approved after use in 15,000 people, ~10 years ago: https://www.fiercepharma.com/vaccines/novartis-receives-fda-...

Are you overestimating the safety testing done on other vaccines?

Of course these are the first widely used vaccines for corona viruses and use new technologies to boot, so there's a lot more to it, but I wonder how you've gone about assessing previous safety proofs.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#26

Post by dcow »

busyant wrote: post #17
unanswered wrote: post #3

If this is a function of the spike protein, doesn't that mean the mRNA vaccines cause this effect as well?

This is a legitimate question, so I don't know why it's being downvoted. Especially given the statement in the abstract of the paper that says, "We show here that S protein alone can damage vascular endothelial cells (ECs) in vitro and in vivo...." That being said, other people on this thread have provided reasonable mechanistic explanations as to why the vaccines would not have this effect, but I will also add we ha…

My partner developed inflammation (resembling gottron papules) on her knuckles a few weeks after receiving the first moderna dose. She now (few days later) has developed a shoulder rash where the vaccine was injected. It’s very curious.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#27

Post by wpasc »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #15
ronri19 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the vaccine causes the body to produce spike protein. The CDC emphasizes the spike protein is harmless, but this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...

The vaccine instructs cells to produce a piece of protein from the spike. There’s no such thing as “a” spike protein, the spike is a structure of proteins that enable a lot of functions for the virus. They choose a piece of protein from the structure that’s antigenic then encode the mRNA to produce that. The mRNA is delivered into the cell by the lipid transport and the cell picks up the instruction and produces the…

From the wikipedia for Pfizer, the vaccine supposedly produces a full length spike protein [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#28

Post by lc9er »

dcow wrote: post #26
busyant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a legitimate question, so I don't know why it's being downvoted. Especially given the statement in the abstract of the paper that says, "We show here that S protein alone can damage vascular endothelial cells (ECs) in vitro and in vivo...." That being said, other people on this thread have provided reasonable mechanistic explanations as to why the vaccines would not have this effect, but I will also add we ha…

My partner developed inflammation (resembling gottron papules) on her knuckles a few weeks after receiving the first moderna dose. She now (few days later) has developed a shoulder rash where the vaccine was injected. It’s very curious.

My spouse, who suffers from an autoimmune disorder, suffered similar symptoms. Severe enough that she won’t be able to get the second dose. My understanding (from her doc) is that this is a known, but uncommon side effect for people with autoimmune conditions.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#29

Post by dctoedt »

Alex3917 wrote: post #5

Yeah we've known this for over 10 years, zero surprise here. There were literally popular books written saying that this would be the mechanism of action for novel coronavirus pandemics (and how to treat them) years before the current pandemic even started, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Herbal-Antivirals-Remedies-Resistant-... Here is the direct quote from the book, published in 2013: "Once receptors on these cells ar…

Not my field (I can spell DNA) but this recent piece seemed of interest. FTA: "A large meta-analysis provides yet more evidence that ACE inhibitors and angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs) pose no harm to patients with COVID-19 and may even be associated with protective benefits, particularly in patients with hypertension."

https://www.tctmd.com/news/continue-ace-inhibitorsarbs-covid...

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Impairs Endothelial Function via Downregulation of ACE2

#30

Post by sebmellen »

dcow wrote: post #26
busyant wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a legitimate question, so I don't know why it's being downvoted. Especially given the statement in the abstract of the paper that says, "We show here that S protein alone can damage vascular endothelial cells (ECs) in vitro and in vivo...." That being said, other people on this thread have provided reasonable mechanistic explanations as to why the vaccines would not have this effect, but I will also add we ha…

My partner developed inflammation (resembling gottron papules) on her knuckles a few weeks after receiving the first moderna dose. She now (few days later) has developed a shoulder rash where the vaccine was injected. It’s very curious.

Quite strange. I've had almost the exact same skin-level reactions, only I received the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine.
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