Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#31

Post by goatforce5 » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 1:25 PM UTC

lucasjung wrote: post #28

goatforce5 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that being a flight attendent is seen as a desirable job, and therefore they just don't need to pay more. They can get keen and well suited people to apply for any job openings they may have, regardless of what the airlines are paying.

This is true, but this same logic applies also to pilots. The key difference is that pilots are very expensive to train and therefore more difficult to replace, whereas flight attendants are relatively easy to train and replace.

Right. And most customers want their pilots to have as much experience as possible. Having senior experienced pilots on your payroll is seen as a plus. Sullenberger, the guy who successfully managed to put a plane down on the Hudson river, basically epitomizes how you want your pilots to look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesley_Sullenberger

You'll never seen an airline advertising how they have the youngest pilots in the industry.

On the other hand, having flight attendants to be as young, attractive and perky as possible is probably considered a positive thing.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#32

Post by mcdowall » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 1:29 PM UTC

geuis wrote: post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

Are you stating that flight attendants worldwide should go on strike, or just the Virgin ones?. My friend has just completed flight attendant training at Virgin, it's an intensive 6 week course with exams etc and the 40 or so that went through th training were selected from in excess of 2,000 applications.

I think your experience of Virgin is great, but I think your comment that they should go on strike because they offer great service is way off. The experience you had is most likely due to the sheer quality of the training and their impeccably high standards, it's also these qualities that mean they are extremely highly regarded talent in their industry.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#33

Post by jterce » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 1:37 PM UTC

geuis wrote: post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

- "Its utterly ridiculous" "They well deserve it."

Why?

You seem to be forgetting the basics of economics. It really doesn't matter what you think they "deserve" or how hard you or they think it is to deal with the general public.

What matters is how many people could/would be willing to do their jobs. And the answer is quite a few, whereas there are many fewer people who could manage a McDonalds.

Thus demand is low for flight attendants, and thus the price is low.

I'm all for people negotiating for as much as they can get, but I certainly don't think it's ridiculous that the market offers different prices for different services.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#34

Post by whyleyc » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 1:45 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #29

UserError wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt he intends any browbeating. Much more likely is that he would just try to make them feel appreciated and create a personal connection with them. They would be a lot more willing to deal with their friend than some "evil corporation."

He has already agreed with the evil corporation. He _is_ the evil corporation. A wolf in sheep's clothing. I doubt he's inviting any of the pilots with him the next time he jet skis with a naked model clinging to his back. Let's just say becoming friends with a billionaire because you've been invited to meet him due to the fact that you're on strike at one of his companies is unlikely.

I'm sure this is true if you have a blanket mindset of "all corporations are evil" but you're doing a Branson a disservice - he's one of the few progressive modern CEO's around.

Check out the "Employees First" section here - http://www.hrh.ch/whoiswho/bransonr/br_page4.html

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#35

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 1:48 PM UTC

smiler wrote: post #22

geuis wrote: post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

It's worth pointing out that Virgin America is a completely independent company of Virgin Atlantic and that your experience seems to be mostly based on Virgin America. You talk about increased pay - the only way to increase staff pay would be to raise fares which customers don't want.

[deleted]

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#36

Post by ddphone » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 2:10 PM UTC

jterce wrote: post #33

geuis wrote: post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

- "Its utterly ridiculous" "They well deserve it." Why? You seem to be forgetting the basics of economics. It really doesn't matter what you think they "deserve" or how hard you or they think it is to deal with the general public. What matters is how many people could/would be willing to do their jobs. And the answer is quite a few, whereas there are many fewer people who could manage a McDonalds. Thus demand is low…

And you seem to be forgetting the basics of being a human.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#37

Post by nopassrecover » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 2:20 PM UTC

geuis wrote: post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

I had a very similar experience with Virgin Blue (Australian national flight service). We arrived an hour late to a flight (daylight savings mixup) and fortunately the plane had been delayed. Not only did a Virgin Blue staff member get us to the front of the line, they let us purchase space for luggage and check it in late (we had cheap no-luggage tickets), and made sure to check with flight staff that the luggage would be on our flight and that our seats were still available.

Contrast with Qantas, where being less than 45 minutes early to a flight usually means you cannot board (you certainly cannot check-in luggage).

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#38

Post by gte910h » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 2:23 PM UTC

lucasjung wrote: post #28

goatforce5 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that being a flight attendent is seen as a desirable job, and therefore they just don't need to pay more. They can get keen and well suited people to apply for any job openings they may have, regardless of what the airlines are paying.

This is true, but this same logic applies also to pilots. The key difference is that pilots are very expensive to train and therefore more difficult to replace, whereas flight attendants are relatively easy to train and replace.

On the high end (why pay a pilot 200k a year, etc) that argument may hold, but on the low end, it causes sleep deprivation as pilots struggle for workable living conditions close to work, etc.

I'm fine paying $10 more a ticket if the low end pilots make 40k or more a year and can afford a good nights sleep. They're someone I don't want many mistakes from.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#39

Post by wmat » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 2:28 PM UTC

jterce wrote: post #33

geuis wrote: post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

- "Its utterly ridiculous" "They well deserve it." Why? You seem to be forgetting the basics of economics. It really doesn't matter what you think they "deserve" or how hard you or they think it is to deal with the general public. What matters is how many people could/would be willing to do their jobs. And the answer is quite a few, whereas there are many fewer people who could manage a McDonalds. Thus demand is low…

If this is the case, then the "basics of economics" sucks. If Virgin really cares about customer service as much as Branson's letter purports, then they should have no problem paying people who do their jobs at a level far above industry standard appropriately.

Maybe I'm being naive but I'd much rather pay a flight attendant who constantly goes beyond the call of duty and does his/her job at an extremely high standard, say $50K rather than paying someone else 30K, just because they're willing to do the job for less money.

You get what you pay for, right.

And I'd happily pay a premium to an airline with this philosophy.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#40

Post by willyt » Mon, Jun 27, 2011, 2:37 PM UTC

justincormack wrote: post #13

arkitaip wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation?

Pretty widely discussed that as a business it has never broken even as a whole. Eg http://www.johnkay.com/2005/09/27/airlines-and-the-canine-fe...

Is that true for other forms of transport too? Probably true for trains. Cars as well? all the road construction and maintenance costs are eaten by the taxpayer.