Live data from Hacker News

Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

virgin.com

21–30 of 79 posts

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#21
post #10

It sounds like he's not really connected to the situation very well. He keeps deferring to management. "Management told me this", "Management showed me that.", "I can't speak with the union head, that's something management is better equipped to handle". I am not sure anyone would ever expect Branson to say anything other than the company line, that he agrees with managements offer. That he feels those who are striki…

The reason Branson keeps deferring is that he isn't the CEO; he "founded" the company but he hasn't really been involved with it for decades.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#22
post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

It's worth pointing out that Virgin America is a completely independent company of Virgin Atlantic and that your experience seems to be mostly based on Virgin America.

You talk about increased pay - the only way to increase staff pay would be to raise fares which customers don't want.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#23
As far as I'm aware there are no 'salary cutbacks', the argument the union is having with the employer is the fact that the offered pay rises over the next 3 or so years are below inflation and this is the dispute they're trying to raise.

The thing is I don't think this strike will raise that much sympathy from the UK public, pilots must get paid at least £100,000 (probably more) which is 4x the average salary in this country. I'm not saying pilots don't deserve that sort of compensation, because they do, it's just I don't think the strike will bring that much in terms of public support.

Especially when most private sector workers in the UK are having their salaries frozen or any pay rises they do get are below inflation

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#24
post #18
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also in the open letter that he was requested. He had also offer private meetings with not only the union but pilots as well.

Your union representative also publicly asked to meet with me personally. I believe that would only cause more publicity which would further damage the airline and I am not best placed to deal with the details of the negotiation. He has no plans to meet with the union. His personal meetings with pilots are probably more to brow beat & pressure them, instead of a gesture of goodwill.

I seriously doubt he intends any browbeating. Much more likely is that he would just try to make them feel appreciated and create a personal connection with them. They would be a lot more willing to deal with their friend than some "evil corporation."

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#25
post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

I believe that being a flight attendent is seen as a desirable job, and therefore they just don't need to pay more. They can get keen and well suited people to apply for any job openings they may have, regardless of what the airlines are paying.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#26
post #11
post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

In "Capitalism, A Love Story", Moore claims that new pilots average the same as a McDonalds low-level manager. If this is true, it would make Virgin pilots comparatively well paid.

I think by "new pilots" they mean "new pilots at regional carriers," not "new pilots at the majors." Of course, these days, the regional carriers have become the primary path to employment in the majors (it used to be the military), so most airline pilots have to endure a few years of that. The fact is, a lot of people love to fly (at the controls, not in the back), so getting paid to fly for a living is an incredible draw. When you add in the great benefits and the high pay for experienced pilots, you're bound to get a situation where people have to pay some serious dues to break into the majors.

My dad is a retired airline pilot, so I've heard plenty about the airline industry from him. For airline pilots, seniority is everything. Part of it is the pay scale, which as you pointed out, is unbelievably steep: the new guys get paid almost nothing, the oldest hands make (at least) the kind of money people normally associate with lawyers and doctors. However, other things that dramatically effect lifestyle are also driven by seniority, such as scheduling and vacation. The senior pilots are able to schedule themselves for contiguous trips and to be home for weekends. My dad used to pull a trick where, if we were planning a vacation, he would book himself up solid with flying for the first two and a half weeks of the month and then hit his legal monthly limit for flight time, after which he got the last week and a half of the month off without having to take any vacation. New guys, on the other hand, get stuck with crazy schedules where there are inconvenient gaps between flights, leaving them with low ratios of hours flown/days worked. Seniority also determines where you can get stationed: the most senior get to pick their home station, the more junior must select less-desirable stations. The most important aspect of seniority is furlough: least senior gets furloughed first. In a cyclic industry with big swings of expansion and contraction, this is a very big deal. When my dad first got out of the Navy and went to work for Pan Am, they gave him an offer: start immediately as a flight engineer and move up to co-pilot in a year, or wait six months to hire on directly as a co-pilot. Even though he wanted to get back into the pilot's seat as quickly as possible, he chose to hire on immediately and delay co-pilot status. He didn't know it at the time, but it turned out to be the best career decision he ever made: a few years later there was a major furlough, and he was just a few seniority numbers above the furlough line. If he had waited those six months, he would have been furloughed and out of work for several years.

It's not set up this way because of the airlines, its because of the pilots' unions. Part of it is driven by position: Captains get paid more than co-pilots, and pilots of bigger jets (longer flights) get paid more than pilots of smaller jets (shorter flights). Even that is driven by seniority, though: the most senior pilots get the big jets. Some aspects of the seniority system make complete sense: you don't want the airline to use a furlough as an excuse to get rid of its most highly-paid pilots. However, the pay scale doesn't need to be nearly as steep as the unions make it, and if it wasn't so steep then the airlines wouldn't have to lay off as many junior pilots to save a given amount of money.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#27
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps because airlines are some of the worst performing businesses in the Western world.

Citation?

Branson has a famous quote about this:

"What's the best way to become a millionaire? Start off as a billionaire and launch an airline."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/simon-cald...

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#28
post #7

I haven't heard anything about the pilot strike mentioned in the article. That aside, I have the following to say which is oriented more towards flight attendants than the pilots whom you don't normally interact with. Of any airline I have ever traveled on, the Virgin lines (Atlantic and America), have been my favorite. This ranges from the very basic things like more leg room than their competitors to wifi in the sk…

I believe that being a flight attendent is seen as a desirable job, and therefore they just don't need to pay more. They can get keen and well suited people to apply for any job openings they may have, regardless of what the airlines are paying.

This is true, but this same logic applies also to pilots. The key difference is that pilots are very expensive to train and therefore more difficult to replace, whereas flight attendants are relatively easy to train and replace.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#29
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your union representative also publicly asked to meet with me personally. I believe that would only cause more publicity which would further damage the airline and I am not best placed to deal with the details of the negotiation. He has no plans to meet with the union. His personal meetings with pilots are probably more to brow beat & pressure them, instead of a gesture of goodwill.

I seriously doubt he intends any browbeating. Much more likely is that he would just try to make them feel appreciated and create a personal connection with them. They would be a lot more willing to deal with their friend than some "evil corporation."

He has already agreed with the evil corporation. He _is_ the evil corporation. A wolf in sheep's clothing. I doubt he's inviting any of the pilots with him the next time he jet skis with a naked model clinging to his back.

Let's just say becoming friends with a billionaire because you've been invited to meet him due to the fact that you're on strike at one of his companies is unlikely.

Re: Richard Branson's open letter to all Virgin pilots

#30
post #21
post #10

It sounds like he's not really connected to the situation very well. He keeps deferring to management. "Management told me this", "Management showed me that.", "I can't speak with the union head, that's something management is better equipped to handle". I am not sure anyone would ever expect Branson to say anything other than the company line, that he agrees with managements offer. That he feels those who are striki…

The reason Branson keeps deferring is that he isn't the CEO; he "founded" the company but he hasn't really been involved with it for decades.

He is the President, is still part of the executive structure & I am sure still has some power within the company. He is also the face of the company.
Post reply on HN