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Will Linux phones stay around this time?

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Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#61

Post by aidenn0 »

ryukafalz wrote: post #41
rubatuga wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if you just have a select() command blocking, I don't see why having a 100 sockets open would be any different than 1 socket.

Part of the problem is that Linux desktop apps typically aren't designed to conserve on network usage and/or don't have mechanisms to do so without a push server. For example, Matrix clients on Android/iOS will stay suspended entirely, then will wake up when you receive a push notification. Desktop clients, on the other hand, will stay running and receive every message, even if they're not messages that you necessari…

> For example, Matrix clients on Android/iOS will stay suspended entirely, then will wake up when you receive a push notification.

Doesn't the protocol already need to do something to support that? Presumably it's an out-of-band notification, and they needed to add support for that. If they already added FCM an APNS, they'll have to add something to support a 3rd OS. It could be in-band or out-of-band, but either way sending a message on a TCP connection is really all that is needed.

As a side note, Jabber did add an in-band way as you suggest, but then also had to add OOB signalling because Apple disallows open sockets for background apps.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#62

Post by danielheath »

rbanffy wrote: post #49
danielheath wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, Android/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Android plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Android system made useful by the Android corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Android runs Linux. Android is not GNU/Linux.

Ahh, I missed one or two substitutions. Fixed now.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#63

Post by heavyset_go »

rbanffy wrote: post #44
dspillett wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends what is being meant by Linux. Yes they run a variant of the Linux kernel, and there is some commonality in parts of the common libraries, but there are significant differences atop that which makes it quite different to your average desktop Linux. The overall Android environment isn't Debian, Ubuntu, RedHat, ..., or other GNU/Linux environment. (the downvotes you currently have there given the graying text ar…

Android is running Linux as much as my router is. Or my TV. Or all those docker containers with a thin image and a Go application. It’s not a desktop Linux OS, of course. But it’s still Linux.

The Android kernel has some changes that weren't upstreamed, has features that Linux doesn't, and is missing some features, as well. For example, SysV IPC isn't supported on Android's Linux kernel[1].

Often, for specific devices, the kernels they run are forks with changes that aren't upstreamed. Some of those changes can be significant enough that porting those changes to an updated kernel snapshot is nearly impossible, so it never happens, despite the kernel fork's source being available under the GPLv2.

[1] https://android.googlesource.com/platform/ndk/+/4e159d95ebf2...

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#64

Post by ryukafalz »

aidenn0 wrote: post #61
ryukafalz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that Linux desktop apps typically aren't designed to conserve on network usage and/or don't have mechanisms to do so without a push server. For example, Matrix clients on Android/iOS will stay suspended entirely, then will wake up when you receive a push notification. Desktop clients, on the other hand, will stay running and receive every message, even if they're not messages that you necessari…

> For example, Matrix clients on Android/iOS will stay suspended entirely, then will wake up when you receive a push notification. Doesn't the protocol already need to do something to support that? Presumably it's an out-of-band notification, and they needed to add support for that. If they already added FCM an APNS, they'll have to add something to support a 3rd OS. It could be in-band or out-of-band, but either way…

> Doesn't the protocol already need to do something to support that? Presumably it's an out-of-band notification, and they needed to add support for that.

Yep, it does, so you could do this; the problem for the Linux desktop is just that there isn't a standardized out-of-band push notification system yet. (I saw another commenter mention UnifiedPush, which sounds interesting - in any case it's not widely supported yet.)

> As a side note, Jabber did add an in-band way as you suggest

It's been a while since I looked into this in detail, but IIRC Jabber generally doesn't have a server-side way to determine which messages should notify? As I recall, the protocol was designed with smart clients and dumb servers in mind, though I'm sure some of that has changed over time - but that design decision doesn't lend itself as well to clients on battery-constrained devices.

Although with that said, the fact that you aren't required to be in the same set of MUCs on every device helps in battery-constrained devices; for example I only stay joined to the rooms that my friends are in from my phone, unless I need to join another one temporarily.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#65

Post by drewzero1 »

LukeShu wrote: post #17
hpoe wrote: post #5

Anyone know of any good Linux phones. Mine is going to be dead soon and for a while I liked Pixel because it didn't have all the Samsung or Motorola or anytime else bloatware, but with what Google has been doing I'd prefer a full Linux phone. I've looked a Librem but $1500 is kind of hard to justify when I have all my other expenses that come with a young family. Anyone have any suggestions?

> I've looked a Librem but $1500 is kind of hard to justify Huh, did you accidentally look at the price of a Librem laptop? The Librem 5 phone USD$800. (But $800 is still kind of hard to justify, especially with "wait more than a year").

Maybe they're thinking of the Librem 5 USA? Priced at $2k, also pretty hard to justify even if I do kind of admire what they're trying to do with it.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#66

Post by kjeetgill »

danielheath wrote: post #62
rbanffy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android runs Linux. Android is not GNU/Linux.

Ahh, I missed one or two substitutions. Fixed now.

In that vein, should Google replace POSIX here? And maybe that cuts to the heart of the matter more then you meant to, haha.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#67

Post by aidenn0 »

ryukafalz wrote: post #64
aidenn0 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, Matrix clients on Android/iOS will stay suspended entirely, then will wake up when you receive a push notification. Doesn't the protocol already need to do something to support that? Presumably it's an out-of-band notification, and they needed to add support for that. If they already added FCM an APNS, they'll have to add something to support a 3rd OS. It could be in-band or out-of-band, but either way…

> Doesn't the protocol already need to do something to support that? Presumably it's an out-of-band notification, and they needed to add support for that. Yep, it does, so you could do this; the problem for the Linux desktop is just that there isn't a standardized out-of-band push notification system yet. (I saw another commenter mention UnifiedPush, which sounds interesting - in any case it's not widely supported ye…

Re: jabber

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0352.html

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#68

Post by wjertyj »

heavyset_go wrote: post #51
robolange wrote: post #19

Openmoko failed for so much more than financial reasons. It's been a while since I've thought of that fiasco, but my memories: * The leadership was terrible. They had no clue what it took to make a mass market product. They just assumed that they would sell hardware and a community would provide a working operating system and apps magically. * The hardware was buggy. There was one issue that if you let the battery dr…

From the same era, I had Nokia's N770, N810 and N900. All three were based on Linux, and they were great. I also had the Palm Pre and Pre 2, both of which were based on Linux (and apps were made with HTML, CSS, and JS in 2009!), and those were also great.

Not only were the Maemo/Meego devices based on Linux, but they embraced a lot of desktop standards. Telephony/messaging all went through Telepathy, UI was GTK under Maemo, then QT under Meego. The app store was just an apt/dpkg frontend.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#69

Post by m4rtink »

dspillett wrote: post #10
rbanffy wrote: post #2

Am I missing something? Every Android phone is running Linux.

Depends what is being meant by Linux. Yes they run a variant of the Linux kernel, and there is some commonality in parts of the common libraries, but there are significant differences atop that which makes it quite different to your average desktop Linux. The overall Android environment isn't Debian, Ubuntu, RedHat, ..., or other GNU/Linux environment. (the downvotes you currently have there given the graying text ar…

Android could be called Android/Linux as Google replaced most of the GNU GPL licensed stuff with BSD licensed alternatives, often self developed (bionic, surface finger, binder, stagefright, etc.) so that they (and vendors) are not bound by GPL obligations and can sit on one changes for ever if they want to.

Kernel is the major thing under GPL left and while there are some theories they might want to replace it with the Fucsia micro kernel I don't think they have a chance in hell given the ministered and number of parties involved in cooperative Linux kernel development.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#70

Post by ericlewis »

Lev1a wrote: post #28
hpoe wrote: post #5

Anyone know of any good Linux phones. Mine is going to be dead soon and for a while I liked Pixel because it didn't have all the Samsung or Motorola or anytime else bloatware, but with what Google has been doing I'd prefer a full Linux phone. I've looked a Librem but $1500 is kind of hard to justify when I have all my other expenses that come with a young family. Anyone have any suggestions?

> Motorola [...] bloatware What do you mean? I've had a couple Motorola phones from the G series (G1 and G4 and currently an AndroidOne) and AFAICT it's been pretty much stock Android apart from: - an app for support enquiries (with diagnostic functionality for the screen, sensors etc.) which I've actually used before, - one app you could opt-in to to get something like product newsletters from Motorola (I don't care…

It’s bloat because those don’t need to be there.
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