It's your device, you should be able to repair it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#521

Post by zepto » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #513

zepto wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, thanks for confirming that that the parent poster was posting a false statement. Secondly, as you must be aware, the reason Apple decreased the performance was to extend the useful lifetime of the battery. The fine was because they didn’t explain this properly in advance, not because they did it. They still in fact do alter the device performance to accommodate aging batteries and make them last longer . Thi…

Imagine your phone with a still good working battery gets significantly slower "to extend the useful lifetime of the battery"...

Imagine that!

To imagine it requires understanding how technology works.

Batteries are chemical processes - they degrade slowly over time. An older battery produces less power, and so can’t support the same peak performance.

You can therefore extend the useful life of the battery by throttling the CPU performance to within the power envelope provided by the battery.

It’s fairly simple to understand.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#522

Post by zepto » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #514

zepto wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they haven’t opened the platform is to protect the security model. That is deliberate, but has nothing to do with planned obsolescence.

That is complete nonsense, and a cop-out at best. Opening up the original iPad to other operating systems and/or DIY software does not mean handing over the signing keys for currently supported platforms. In case of a running iPad, an Apple-authorized update could be pushed to the OS to unlock it and allow it to run binaries directly. Apple could also document any hardware features that would allow someone to put an…

What you have described completely destroys the security model.

> In case of a running iPad, an Apple-authorized update could be pushed to the OS to unlock it and allow it to run binaries directly.

Which of course an attacker would be able to do too.

> Apple could also document any hardware features that would allow someone to put an iPad into "free-for-all" mode. Presumably this would require opening up the device to attach a serial cable to a JTAG connection or something similar.

Which of course a police department, the FBI, or the agents of an oppressive regime or anyone who bought a JTAG device off ebay would be able to do too.

These are exactly the reasons they don’t do these things - if they did, they would be opening attack vectors.

Security is hard. I’m not saying it’s impossible to achieve this, but it’s not simple.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#523

Post by CRConrad » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #484

nousermane wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can choose to forgo owning stuff personally, sure. But that is not everybody's preference. And please don't pretend that "devices aren't built around discrete components anymore". There are plenty of discrete components in a modern phone/laptop/roomba/whatever, that could be replaceable/upgradable by advanced user or entry-level technician, but are not: - battery - screen - storage - RAM - list goes on and on...

RAM and storage is usually integrated on phones. The battery is usually not something you can pull out anymore because people like me prefer phones that I can use to find my way in the rain without risk damaging the phone, but even so they are pretty easy to replace, the same with the screen. On laptops you have a choice: buy a Thinkpad that is not an ultrabook, but even then you see people prefer thinner and lighter…

How do you use your phone in the rain? Whenever I try, I find it's pretty much impossible, because the screen gets all wet and slippery, I can hardly see anything on it because of distortion through individual drops of rain, and I get spurious clicks from raindrops falling onto it. So I have to shield it under an umbrella or something...

And if I have to do that anyway, the phone being less than 100% watertight because the battery is swappable won't be a problem in the first place.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#524

Post by CRConrad » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #230

OrwellianChild wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your approach will always be a valid choice, for those who want it, and companies will be happy to provide that device-as-a-service model. R2R is just seeking to preserve the practical access to repairability for those who want to service their own devices.

> Your approach will always be a valid choice, for those who want it This isn't "my approach" – it's the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer. And pining for the good ol' days of technical datasheets doesn't help everybody who can't start their cars without the successful interaction of nearly a hundred proprietary microcontrollers running proprietary code speaking over a high-speed data bus. And here…

> This isn't "my approach" – it's the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer.

We don't know that. We might, if the other alternative was available for purchasers to choose from, but it isn't.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#525

Post by CRConrad » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #260

_underfl0w_ wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source to cite for "the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer"? That seems pretty speculative. The market can be manipulated or directed by more than simply consumer choice, e.g. by business incentives of product manufacturers.

> Do you have a source to cite for "the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer"? I mean, gestures at every consumer-targeted product made since at least the early 'oughts . People want things that are some combination of more capable, more convenient, more reliable, and less expensive. Different consumers obviously make different decisions, but there's a reason you can't go to a car lot and easily find…

> I mean, gestures at every consumer-targeted product made since at least the early 'oughts.

Exactly. Only that proves the opposite of what you think it proves.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#526

Post by fsflover » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #520

fsflover wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 11-year-old laptop works fine with latest Debian and Firefox.

This is no different from 11 year old Apple laptops.

But it is different from GNU/Linux phones, which will be supported forever.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#527

Post by fsflover » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #505

fsflover wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody has presented any evidence that Apple is doing this Simply compare the cost of official Apple service and corrsponding third-party service.

That is not evidence of anything. There are many reasons that third party service is cheaper that have nothing to do with some conspiracy by Apple.

AFAIK the price difference is so huge that no reasonable explanation (except the "conspiracy", i.e., greed) is possible.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#528

Post by fsflover » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #500

fsflover wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn’t planned obsolescence, because the people who upgrade for status reasons don’t destroy their phones This has nothing to do with the definition of planned obsolescence. It does not matter what people do with the old phones.

It obviously does. If the phones are still in service, then by definition they are not obsolete .

Reread the thread. In this thread, the OP is speaking about design obsolescence.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#529

Post by fsflover » Sat, May 01, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #521

fsflover wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine your phone with a still good working battery gets significantly slower "to extend the useful lifetime of the battery"...

Imagine that! To imagine it requires understanding how technology works. Batteries are chemical processes - they degrade slowly over time. An older battery produces less power, and so can’t support the same peak performance. You can therefore extend the useful life of the battery by throttling the CPU performance to within the power envelope provided by the battery. It’s fairly simple to understand.

Apple should simply allow easy replacing the battery and not deceive their customers with "helpful updates", which make devices slow. This is anti-consumer, as proven by the lawsuit.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#530

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #522

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is complete nonsense, and a cop-out at best. Opening up the original iPad to other operating systems and/or DIY software does not mean handing over the signing keys for currently supported platforms. In case of a running iPad, an Apple-authorized update could be pushed to the OS to unlock it and allow it to run binaries directly. Apple could also document any hardware features that would allow someone to put an…

What you have described completely destroys the security model. > In case of a running iPad, an Apple-authorized update could be pushed to the OS to unlock it and allow it to run binaries directly. Which of course an attacker would be able to do too. > Apple could also document any hardware features that would allow someone to put an iPad into "free-for-all" mode. Presumably this would require opening up the device t…

We're talking about a device that is completely unsupported by its manufacturer. You already have no expectation of security or integrity when the last available OS and security update is over 5 years old by now.

Opening up access to install your own software would have great potential to increase the security of the device, not least because you can actually run current and patched versions of any software.

What you're arguing for is security by obscurity.