Live data from Hacker News

Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

eater.com

481–490 of 492 posts

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#481
post #2

> Vegan Cheese Is Ready to Compete With Dairy. Is the World Ready to Eat It? I’m vegetarian and my partner is vegan - I’ve tried every vegan cheese on the shelf. The answer is no because it’s not even close to ready. It might pass an initial taste test where you say, that’s not so bad, but then you pick up on all the things it’s missing. Sometimes the aftertaste is terrible, sometimes the texture or versatility. Mayb…

Have you tried Spero sunflower cream cheese? I would say it is less like a cream cheese exactly and more like a new food on its own (like hummus or guacamole, but neutral and pair-able in taste like cheese or butter). The Goat on some toast with a dollop of jam will kill any cheese pastry envy. It is very good, even special. Vegan food is best when it draws inspiration without exact imitation and Spero really created something unique.

https://sperofoods.co/

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everytime I read an article about vegan cheese it seems to lead with the outdated information that rennet is, like, normally, made with the stomach lininig of unweaned calves From the article: > What Perfect Day is doing isn’t new, exactly: Pandya, who is vegan, points out that for a long time, dairy cheese wasn’t even considered vegetarian because of its use of rennet. When vegetarian rennet was developed in the 1…

I've read that. Why do you copy it here?

Because the very counterpoint you were making was already addressed in detail in the article. Admittedly not as much detail, but they weren't being as simplistic and false as you suggest with your quote of the article.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes that the actual version? That it's milk with almond. Like "chocolate milk" is milk with chocolate and "milk coffee" is coffee with milk.

Do you have a problem with the name "peanut butter"? It isn't butter with peanuts in it. Or mincemeat pie, which isn't made out of minced meat?

Proper mincemeat pies contain suet and have a very different taste from the vegetarian ones. So yes, in that case it is a problematic name that conflates two usefully distinct things.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#484
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes that the actual version? That it's milk with almond. Like "chocolate milk" is milk with chocolate and "milk coffee" is coffee with milk.

So if I'm Catholic, it's OK for me to drink almond-flavored dairy-milk during Lent? Win! From medieval and Renaissance-era recipes, religious rules appears to be the main reason almond milk is used. Because it's not dairy.

Not sure about that, but I do know that if you want to eat capybara on Fridays as your fish dish you should be fine.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#485
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most functioning adults can keep quiet about a simple preference but morals don’t work the same. Handling difficult feelings without acting out is one of the definitions of being a functional adult. You may have that backwards, though it is very consistent with the pop culture moral / philosophical (behavioral?) flavor of late.

Counterpoints: every religious war ever. The “war” on drugs. Prohibition. Moral crusades for censorship or elimination of porn. Rules against sex work in general. Sections 64, 65, 69, 70 and 71 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The religious affiliation requirements in the rules of succession of the British Crown. Forbidden foods in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and others. Western prohibition on multiple spouses. The lev…

Those are examples of dysfunctional adults acting out. Thank you for making my case for me!

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#486
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoints: every religious war ever. The “war” on drugs. Prohibition. Moral crusades for censorship or elimination of porn. Rules against sex work in general. Sections 64, 65, 69, 70 and 71 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The religious affiliation requirements in the rules of succession of the British Crown. Forbidden foods in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and others. Western prohibition on multiple spouses. The lev…

Those are examples of dysfunctional adults acting out. Thank you for making my case for me!

If you choose to describe majority of the electorate in multiple elections in a row as “not meeting the definition of ‘being a functional adult’”, then whatever definition you used for those words are not useful ones — and that’s just Prohibition.

Disagreeing with the requirements of sections 64, 65, and 70? Outside of philosophical discussions, most normal people find them sufficiently repulsive that even suggesting they might not be things that ought to be illegal is enough to make you a social pariah. (I’m not sure exactly how 69 or 71 are seen, but the actions they outlaw are demonstrably frowned on enough for the sections to survive multiple elections).

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly? Yes, if you made a mushroom risotto with chicken, and it was genuinely designed to imitate a mushroom risotto, then that's what I would call it: a mushroom risotto with chicken. What would you call it? Would you come up with an entirely new name? > Except serving that to a vegan claiming it's a "mushroom risotto" would probably make me an ass To be clear, the jerk part here would be serving non-vegan food t…

Yes that's what I meant by 'defendable direction'. Feeding 'actual' fried chicken to a person expecting "vegan fried chicken" is a dick move, because they're vegan. But the reverse would probably just be seen as a 'harmless "educational" joke', even though it's still equally dickish. But this perceived defensibility imbalance is partly what creates this confusion-inducing cavalier appropriation of food names. I don't…

> a 'harmless "educational" joke',

Feeding someone food that they don't want to eat is a jerk move regardless of what direction you're going.

I do think part of the reason why people take the vegan direction more seriously is that many vegans have strong preferences against eating those foods, and most non-vegans don't. To pull it out of the vegan world and offer a different perspective, this is the same reason why it's more of a jerk move to sneak a Muslim pork than it is to sneak them a black bean brownie. But of course, if you know someone has even a mild preference against eating any food, sneaking them that food is a jerk move. Don't do that, not even for minor preferences.

My only disagreement on this front is that I don't see how respecting those people requires forcing general food names to have one-to-one correlations to a specific ingredients list. And I say that as a vegan who does not get offended if a restaurant puts butter on their green beans and still calls them green beans, or if someone calls cricket flour "flour" even though it's not made from grain. I'm not trying to reclaim the word "salad" or anything. All I want is for the restaurant to be able to tell me if something is vegan or not if I ask, or to label it one way or another. And that labeling can be useful for non-vegans as well.

> It's one thing to talk about recipe variants [...], it's another to talk about a Costa vegan ham and cheese toastie (as welcome as it may be as a dish). It's just begging for confusion. And, I have zero clue what crap I'm eating when I order one.

I'm not sure. I somewhat get what you're saying, but I think there are two reasons I'm skeptical about this argument:

First, if you have a preference/allergy regarding products like soy and corn, buying meat-based products already isn't safe. The meat industry has been using soy and other ingredients for filler, flavoring, and preservatives for years and their labeling on that front is not particularly great. A good 5-10% of taco bell meat you buy will be additives like thickeners. So the "meat" word isn't protecting people who really want to avoid common vegan ingredients or processed foods. That's a problem that can only be solved with labeling.

Secondly, I'm skeptical because over the years the actual legal arguments being made in this debate have taken on an element of absurdity to me, even when dealing with non-recipe foods. As a specific example, the US FDA currently defines "milk" as coming purely from a cow. But that's just ridiculous, nobody would argue that goat milk or breast milk isn't real milk. Nobody would argue that consumer confusion is a good reason to call goat milk something like "lactation" or "juice" instead. And seeing what the industry actually lobbies for, I just don't believe confusion is what the industry cares about. It makes me wonder what's going to happen when lab-meat becomes a thing, and whether the meat industry is still going to have the exact same debates about a food product that is chemically identical to what they're selling.

I think sometimes the distinctions between two foods are small enough that they should share the same name even though the distinctions might matter to some (even many) people. The difference between 2% and whole milk matters nutritionally and labeling should reflect that, but they're both still milk. The difference between breast milk and bovine milk definitely matters, and you'd better not give me brownies made with breast milk or I am never visiting your house again and I am telling all the neighbors to avoid you. But they're both still milk. The difference between brie and cheddar cheese is huge, involving both taste and texture -- but they're both still cheese. So we're in a situation where vegan milk/eggs/cheese and animal milk/eggs/cheese are used almost exactly the same way in most recipes, they look the same, they accomplish the same goals in most meals, and while they're distinguishable when eaten, the taste difference between vegan cheddar and regular cheddar is not (imo) as large as the difference between cheddar and, say, cottage cheese. The differences do matter, particularly nutritionally, and they should be clearly labeled, but do they matter so much that they need completely separate words? I would argue that putting them in the same category of food is the least confusing way to talk about them, and nutritional/ingredient labeling is a separate concern from etymology.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#488
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link, asparagus "the largest environmental footprint of any of the 56 vegetables they looked at, including its land use and water use", with 5.3kg of CO2 per kg of Asparagus. According to [0], "The average footprint of beef, excluding methane, is 36 kilograms of CO2eq per kilogram" - so even the worst vegetable imported from the farthest part of the world is 10x better per kg than beef. Also, I think that a…

They get 5.3 kg CO2eq for asparagus because they are looking at asparagus air shipped from Peru. Of course that's terrible. Don't buy fruits and vegetables shipped via air. If you buy locally grown asparagus -- where I live, that means around four weeks every year -- it's fine. Stuff that gets put on a boat is in-between; no idea if that's viable for asparagus, it never occured to me to buy it out of season.

The links I shared have a chart breaking down the co2 cost by land usage, transport, feeding and even the worst vegetables transported the farthest have an order of magnitude less of an impact than local beef.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that. Why do you copy it here?

Because the very counterpoint you were making was already addressed in detail in the article. Admittedly not as much detail, but they weren't being as simplistic and false as you suggest with your quote of the article.

Thanks for the explanation but the text you quote doesn't say that fermentation-produced rennet is the norm in the cheese industry and that animal rennets (as well as fungal and plant rennets) are only used in a tiny proportion of all commercial cheeses.

If someone who didn't know anything about cheesemaking were to read the article, the opinion they would form from it would probably be that rennet is made from calf stomachs' linings and that other kinds of rennet are "some times used".

It wouldn't help anyone reading the article to find out that "vegetarian rennet" was commercialised in the 1970's and 80's as the article later says, because the article hasn't made any attempt to explain what "vegetarian rennet" is, exactly. "Vegetarian rennet" can apply to fungal or plant rennet as well as it can apply to rennet produced by bacterial frermentation and an inexperienced reader may well confuse the three and think that it only applies to the former two.

To quote directly from the article, the phrase "vegetarian rennet, derived from molds or plants, is used in some cases" is the one I find the most potentially confusing to readers who don't have detailed knowledge of cheesemaking.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#490
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't make any assumptions about your state of mind. You should learn to do the same. It will make you a better internet citizen. I mean, you disagree with me so I must be worked up about what you say? What can I reply to that? There's only one way discussion quality can go after that, and that is down the drain. Not to mention the casual sexism inherent in that kind of comment to users with clearly feminine…

You just casually put me in a box labelled "fake-vegans" and as far as I can tell I never made any sexist comment, yet your comment reads like I have. Quite bold to start your comment by saying you don't make any assumptions about my state of mind. In any case, I didn't even state that you were worked up, I honestly wanted to know if the semantics was your only beef (lol). However, I can see how that may have come ac…

That's because you're making the wrong assumptions about the "amount of various emotions I put into my comments".
Post reply on HN