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Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

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Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#431

Post by freeflight »

spfzero wrote: post #414
AussieWog93 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need to invent new anything. So many great vegan dishes have existed for centuries and survived against meat on their own merits. Proper falafel with tabouleh and tahini is amazing. Chana or brinjal masala are a treat. Pasta with a simple 4 ingredient Napoli is the ultimate comfort food. Don't even get me started on dosa. Hell, fucking bread dipped in olive oil is good. Yet, for God knows what reason, whenev…

Why would you think Paleo food choices aren't appreciated by people who derive a massive amount of pleasure from food? Paleo/Primal foods are the most satisfying, tastey and healthy foods. The feelings around food are evolutionarily rooted. We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design. There is an epidemiological experiment that has been going on for over a million years.…

> We are always going to be most satisfied by the foods that are best for us, it's by design.

Not with modern food science. A lot of people consider cornsyrupy sugar water to be satisfying because companies have collectively spent billions and decades in R&D and marketing to make it taste and look as satisfying as possible.

It works because our sense are not infallible, they can be tricked and purposefully mislead. Just like taste expectations are often built from childhood on.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#432

Post by cheese_goddess »

hjek wrote: post #428
cheese_goddess wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lesson I learned early in life is this: just because someone is upset with what you're saying, doesn't mean your 're right, or that they're upset because you're right, or even that they're upset about what you think they are. For example, what I find annoying in your comment is the casual attribution of thoughts, emotions, morals and life experiences to me that you have no way to know I have. But you go ahead and m…

> For example, I am not a carnist. I don't even know what that is. "Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals." ( https://carnism.org/carnism/ ) > you should stick to your principles You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong. This is additionally double-standard…

> "Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals." ( https://carnism.org/carnism/ )

Someone made a webpage.

> You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong.

Are you measuring me by the principles I don't have? For example, do you think it's wrong for me to eat meat and cheese and any animal products I like, even though I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as you do?

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#433

Post by hjek »

cheese_goddess wrote: post #430
hjek wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me, anyone who eats pretend-meat or pretend-dairy is a pretend-vegan. I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering. Eating is not always a single-person activity, so having vegan substitutes for meat and cheese is great when eating together with non-vegans who may be wary of falafels. There are very few vegans who are vegans because of taste. Many are worried about the environmental…

> I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering. I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way. If you want nut paste to behave in a way that reminds of cheese, you have to stuff it full of gums and emulsifiers and stabilisers and all the additives that go into typical over-processed junk food. Cheese works the way it works because of a c…

> I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way.

Totally agree. It's not quite the same. I'm prepared to occasionally abstain from certain well-tasting foods or use a less-than-perfect substitute out of solidarity with farmed animals and out of care for the planet. It's a trade-off. I agree.

> As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables.

Yea, exactly. And sometimes mushrooms.

> Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat?

It's a good question. I think it's a bit more complex than pretending to eat meat. For me, personally, it's more about reclaiming certain dishes that we usually consider meat-based but that don't have to be, such as burgers and hotdogs.

For those who've just seen Cowspiracy or Earthlings and start to realize how harmful industrial animal agriculture is but also "can't live without their cheese and their meat", those meat substitutes are perfect. They substitute the taste but not the harm. They can make a zero-effort switch without changing any habits or learning to cook new dishes. It's the best of both worlds.

I love that 7-Eleven has started selling vegan hotdogs here. You get the choice of buying a delicious hotdog without having to worry about eating the body of someone who've been driven around in crowded trucks to then have their brains shot out with a pressure gun or being gassed. To me, it seems like self-delusion to buy the murder-hotdogs when the vegan ones are available.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#434

Post by cheese_goddess »

ThrowawayIP wrote: post #374
cheese_goddess wrote: post #257

>> A coagulant is typically added to turn the milk proteins into solid curds — in many cheeses, that coagulant is an enzyme called rennet, which is traditionally taken from an unweaned calf’s stomach lining, although vegetarian rennet, derived from molds or plants, is used in some cases. "Traditionally" rennet was taken from an unweaned milk animal's stomach (not just a calf's stomach. Some people make most of their…

This is entirely dependent on the type of cheese being made. Famously, Parmigiano-Reggiano is required under the EU DOP scheme to be made with calf rennet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmigiano-Reggiano#/media/Fil...

As I say, most cheese is made with rennet enzymes produced by bacterial fermentation. Obviously, some aren't, but they are the tiniest minority. The article gives the impression that animal rennet is the norm and what I say in my comment is that it is not.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#435

Post by cheese_goddess »

h0l0cube wrote: post #352
cheese_goddess wrote: post #257

>> A coagulant is typically added to turn the milk proteins into solid curds — in many cheeses, that coagulant is an enzyme called rennet, which is traditionally taken from an unweaned calf’s stomach lining, although vegetarian rennet, derived from molds or plants, is used in some cases. "Traditionally" rennet was taken from an unweaned milk animal's stomach (not just a calf's stomach. Some people make most of their…

> everytime I read an article about vegan cheese it seems to lead with the outdated information that rennet is, like, normally, made with the stomach lininig of unweaned calves From the article: > What Perfect Day is doing isn’t new, exactly: Pandya, who is vegan, points out that for a long time, dairy cheese wasn’t even considered vegetarian because of its use of rennet. When vegetarian rennet was developed in the 1…

I've read that. Why do you copy it here?

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#436

Post by freeflight »

rusk wrote: post #188
fooblat wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Em yes! "The European Parliament has voted in favour of an amendment (no.171) which would place further restrictions on the use of dairy food labels for plant-based products. The use of dairy terms, such as "cheese", "yoghurt" and "milk", for non-dairy products is already banned within the EU, following a decision by the CJEU in 2017, however, under the new amendment, these restrictions would go one step further by a…

Apologies that’s a new one on me I guess it hasn’t made it to my neck of the woods yet! I don’t think the similar effort around meats has gone so well ... EDIT still ongoing and not yet legislated you can still buy “vegan cheese” for now https://m.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/amendment-171-34-pol... It’s interesting that your jurisdiction is so proactive in this area!

> Amendment 171: 34 politicians protest plant-based dairy censorship in European Parliament

Between that title, and it having been posted on April the 1st, I find it difficult to take that article serious.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#437

Post by [deleted] »

Kalium wrote: post #365
thaumasiotes wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not want to suggest that people "just don't like vegan cheese because they're expecting animal milk cheese" but I do suspect that if people would stop thinking of certain vegan cheeses as substitutes for animal cheeses, they would feel really differently on average. Naming the product "vegan cheese" isn't doing it any favors in this regard. A Chinese instructor told me once that tofu was the Chinese equivalent…

I suggest looking up the process for making mozzarella at home. Then then process for making tofu at home. Your instructor was accurate on more than a purely nutritional level.

[deleted]

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#438

Post by cheese_goddess »

hjek wrote: post #433
cheese_goddess wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love that you can get all the taste without the violence and suffering. I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way. If you want nut paste to behave in a way that reminds of cheese, you have to stuff it full of gums and emulsifiers and stabilisers and all the additives that go into typical over-processed junk food. Cheese works the way it works because of a c…

> I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way. Totally agree. It's not quite the same. I'm prepared to occasionally abstain from certain well-tasting foods or use a less-than-perfect substitute out of solidarity with farmed animals and out of care for the planet. It's a trade-off. I agree. > As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables. Yea, exactly. And sometimes…

I'm sure you've heard this one a thousand times before and you have the answer ready. I don't know the answer you have ready so I'm curious to hear it:

"Killing animals is not murder. Murder is when a human kills another human".

Go ahead then. Say your thing.

By the way, I think that hotdogs are gross and unhealthy and I wouldn't eat one, meat or no meat. Like I said in my original comment (from which it's true I digressed more than a bit) there are a ton of other things you can eat and enjoy that are vegetarian or vegan and that are not fake meat or fake cheese. I don't understand why some vegans and vegetarians prefer to substitute the meat and dairy they say they don't want to eat anymore with fake versions, rather than learn to cook and enjoy food without meat and animal products. That to me is just lazy and self-deceiving.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#439

Post by freeflight »

captainredbeard wrote: post #160
ccmonnett wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ability to eat as much food as you desire is synonymous with living in a first world country. The ability murder as many animals as you want is not the desired state I look for when thinking about the world in which my child to grow up. A future in which that is synonymous with status is backwards - to me.

Well, you can choose to not contribute to animal-based agriculture. Similarly, I do not want mine to grow up in a world with forced veganism. Who wins in this conflict? I would say you keep your morals in your court for such contentious issues, to do otherwise is maliciously aggressive.

It's sad how this whole discourse so often boils down to the two extreme choices of "No animal products at all, you murderer!" vs "So much animal products as I want, you dictator!".

When imho a pretty sensible middle ground could very well be found between these two. But that would involve some moderation, rediscovering animal products as something special, and not just a mass commodity, something neither of the two extreme camps would ever agree with.

Re: Vegan cheese has quietly but steadily infiltrated mainstream supermarket shelves

#440

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

barbazoo wrote: post #106
Accacin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm vegan, and probably not. I've heard that most vegan substitutes are processed heavily so not really more healthy (and probably less healthy than non-vegan options). However, I do still eat them on occasion. Sometimes after a 30km run, all I think about is burgers so when I get home and sit and have vegan burger with vegan cheese. It may not be as good as the 'real thing' but it hits the spot :)

After 2 years or so of eating vegetarian I don't think that meat burgers are actually better. First of all, a burger is all about toppings and condiments. And vegetarian patties have come such a long way, texture and flavor wise, it blows my mind. Compared to the boring and ever the same taste of meat it doesn't even come close for me.

If the burger is all about toppings and condiments, you are not eating good burgers, sir.
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