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Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

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Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#131

Post by SeanLuke »

Black101 wrote: post #95
jeffwass wrote: post #10

Summary for those that don’t want to watch the video : - Pianist creates YouTube video demonstrating how to play Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata - part of this video includes her playing Moonlight Sonata (of course) - YouTube has a new ‘feature’ that scans submitted videos prior to publication to identify potentially copyrighted material - her video is found to include copyrighted material. She is certain this is a mist…

Even if that piece was copyright, is it a copyright violation to play it yourself and publish it?

Yes. Because music is both composed and performed, it has three primary copyright scenarios.

1. Print rights protect sheet music etc. from being copied.

2. Performance rights control whether your composed music can be performed.

3. Mechanical rights control whether your performance can be copied (onto mp3 say). Also related to these are "synchronization" issues and licenses.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#132

Post by CydeWeys »

gabrielblack wrote: post #57

I can't understand why Youtube has no procedure to flag companies as "Wicca Moonlight” like scammer / troll so, after a certain number of infractions like that one ( pretending to be the rightful owner of the rights on BEETHOVEN music !), they are sanctioned in some way or banned. That to add some symmetry to the procedure to fight trolls trying to steal other peoples hard job.

Maybe "Wicca Moonlight" has previously been flagged as a scammer/troll and are now on their tenth account they've been doing this with? It could be whack-a-mole on all ends. It's not particularly hard to spin up another LLC, register, and start filing claims.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#133

Post by eru »

gabrielblack wrote: post #57

I can't understand why Youtube has no procedure to flag companies as "Wicca Moonlight” like scammer / troll so, after a certain number of infractions like that one ( pretending to be the rightful owner of the rights on BEETHOVEN music !), they are sanctioned in some way or banned. That to add some symmetry to the procedure to fight trolls trying to steal other peoples hard job.

They might have such a system, but the scale is so big, that we are still seeing the false negatives?

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#134

Post by SeanLuke »

qayxc wrote: post #127
Waterluvian wrote: post #121

Is this all because of bad American law, or is youtube proactively being bad in their moderation process?

It's a problem of scale. It's perfectly possibile to manage a few hundred disputes on a daily basis, but with >5000 uploads per minute, it becomes impossible to do manually. The worst part is the asymmetry between claimants and creators. But that's the fucked up nature of civil law - the burden of proof is reversed.

> It's a problem of scale. It's perfectly possibile to manage a few hundred disputes on a daily basis, but with >5000 uploads per minute, it becomes impossible to do manually.

Nonsense. Assuming the revenue to Google increases linearly with uploads, so does their ability to hire content moderators.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#135

Post by eru »

Sebb767 wrote: post #123
bertil wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since there is no legal penalty for a "false positive", I’m really confused by that part: YouTube lawyers must know that there’s a significant risk they’ll piss of a someone like a law professor and that they’ll use all their faculty to go after what is essentially fraud: there are provisions in the CDMA precisely for that, and the platform is liable for indulging those in systematic cases. Even if it’s not, they a…

> there are provisions in the CDMA precisely for that, and the platform is liable for indulging those in systematic cases. (assuming you mean DMCA) Yes, that has provisions, but YT copyright claims are explicitly not DMCA claims. This is intentional to both protect the content creator (lawsuits are expensive!) and YouTube. > YouTube lawyers must know that there’s a significant risk they’ll piss of a someone like a la…

> There is no chance for Google to automate away any of this.

I'm not quite so pessimistic. There is a chance, machine learning is pretty good these days.

But: the chance is pretty low and I assume other priorities are taking up most of their time, and this would be a risky project from a legal point of view.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#136

Post by rainbowzootsuit »

gabrielblack wrote: post #57

I can't understand why Youtube has no procedure to flag companies as "Wicca Moonlight” like scammer / troll so, after a certain number of infractions like that one ( pretending to be the rightful owner of the rights on BEETHOVEN music !), they are sanctioned in some way or banned. That to add some symmetry to the procedure to fight trolls trying to steal other peoples hard job.

It seems like the claimers have little invested into the persuit compared to the people making videos and could relatively easily make a new scam account. It certainly wouldn't hurt to add a little more friction to someone making frivolous claims as it would likely kill off a number of them that are low effort.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#137

Post by eru »

bitcharmer wrote: post #2

She actually decided to quit YouTube after this completely unfair treatment. I think it's high time these platforms saw some regulation. It's ridiculous what they are allowed to get away with.

You know that Google's behaviour here is a reaction to regulation?

It's tempting to answer failures in regulation with cries for more regulation..

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#138

Post by lovelyviking »

Actually I doubt that you can avoid abusing current copyright laws.

Also because there is no such "right" in nature. If you wish monopoly call it for what it is and have laws in accordance. Such "right" shouldn't exist in the first place or at least in the current form.

Copy process is the way people learn and progress. Copy process is essential for spreading knowledge and development.

When you learn you copy. When you sing you copy. When you speak you copy. When you teach you copy. When you think you copy. People copy their parents. You are the mixed copy of your parents plus mixed copy of other things and factors.

When you show to others what you did you copy too.

I give you a concrete example. I was dancing Argentinian tango in a charity event and wanted to show record of it to other people. I've got copyright claim on YouTube.

I was not even demonstrating music - I was demonstrating Dancing! The music played in the background was created somewhere in 1930-1940. The music played at the event was not even original composition. It was a cover done by local artist. And it was played live during the event with improvisations. Unfortunately I couldn't show this event to anyone else because I've got copyright claim on YouTube channel. I couldn't even share the record with my friends as private link. I couldn't even show the video to my partner for goodness sake. If this is not idiocy resulting from so called "copyright" then what is?

Unlimited copy process is crucial to arts especially because you should feel free to express yourself and only this way something new can appear.

Copy is a natural process and any attempt to regulate it or regulate it too much can and will create more problems than it solves!

Perhaps it's time to start listening RMS more carefully. This is one about copyright: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eginMQBWII4

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#139

Post by xyzzyz »

qayxc wrote: post #117
opan wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the centralization plus trusting a company is the issue, not a lack of cost meaning we aren't deserving of a good experience. Look at Peertube or other free as in freedom options.

> I think the centralization plus trusting a company is the issue, I think that's not the issue at all. The problem is simply scale. Currently, about 5000 videos are uploaded to YT every minute . If just 0.1% of them have any potential copyright issues, that's 5 potentially complex cases per minute or 7200 per day. No amount of human review will be able to decide this in a timely manner. The piano teacher's case is j…

7200 cases a day is most definitely not too much for a human review.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#140

Post by BlueTemplar »

Sebb767 wrote: post #108
avereveard wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMCA is bad but the undisputable claim and three strike systems is all of Google own doing

The video covers this aspect. Yes, the current system is bad, but it replaces a scary letter demanding cease and desists plus high damage payments and a resolution between extremely expensive lawyers. It surely is not optimal, but I doubt your common YouTuber could afford to fight claims in court.

That's a US-specific issue. Yet people all over the world are affected by ContentID (though at least in the EU AFAIK you can now get a third party to mediate this dispute).
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