It's your device, you should be able to repair it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#461

Post by zepto » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:41 AM UTC

joshspankit wrote: post #452

zepto wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so no evidence at all was presented to support your claim that it was international, and your suggestion that the court found it so turns out to be bullshit since the court didn’t even rule.

Unfortunately we can no longer look at court decisions as arguments either way. Large companies simply settle out of court in order to silence the facts. - If they are wrong and are successful in getting out of it, they might walk away with a judge "confirming" that they did no wrong. - If they are wrong and the evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive, they might write a cheque and walk away. In either case the public…

Large companies and small companies settle out of court when the cost of fighting the battle isn’t worth it - nothing more and nothing less.

We can deduce that there as no evidence of intent, since if the plaintiffs had such evidence they wouldn’t have settled for so little. Remember that this was a class action with a huge class, so the settlement amount is diminimis for the plaintiffs but a decent payout for the attorneys. I.e. they had no case, and Apple paid to end the inconvenience.

This is obviously nothing like a verdict by a judge and provides us no information about the facts whatsoever, because no facts were presented.

The presence of a court case does not provide evidence for the michaelmrose’s subtext.

If it did, you would be able to reference some.

Also, this further confirms that the original claim by michaelmrose that they lost a court case and that the court found intent, was complete bullshit.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#462

Post by userbinator » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #37

css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

Re: Legacy software support How does this work with physical products such as cars? Is there a statute of limitations for automobile recalls?

Companies like Tesla are trying to change things, but for most of a century it was the norm that the manufacturer would make parts available for purchase, and even if they had stopped doing so, there is a huge aftermarket industry around repair and customisation.

The aftermarket has become so big, that you can probably build an entire car of the 50s to early 70s entirely out of aftermarket parts. Even body panels and frame rails are available.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#463

Post by twinge » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #337

6510 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturers want planned obsolesce more than anyone. The problem in my view is that we take limited resources and combine it with slave labor to create landfill. Those few years of usage are not even that relevant. Recycling should be the first goal then repair ability. I think we can do this without the manufacturers drawing the proverbial short straw. Maybe we should get a partial refund when returning expired de…

> The problem in my view is that we take limited resources and combine it with slave labor to create landfill. Those few years of usage are not even that relevant. That's an important insight. I only recently realized this too, and conceptualized it as a pipeline: RAW > PRODUCT > FINISHED > A BIT > WASTE MATERIALS > COMPONENTS > GOODS > OF USE > MATTER Now when we say that our economy grows exponentially, it means th…

Bear in mind matter isn't the only component. Energy is another huge input to the system. E.g. blockchain and its derivatives use tiny amounts of matter to use enormous amounts of energy.

We can and must develop more environmentally responsible sources of matter and energy. Trying to change human behavior with our current regulatory controls have been demonstrably inadequate. There are sources of matter and energy that do not run out, I believe them to be in space.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#464

Post by sokoloff » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:05 AM UTC

OrwellianChild wrote: post #458

olliej wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long should a company like apple that designs its own SoCs have to continue manufacturing replacement ones? That's not cheap - remember phones are only at the prices they are because they're manufactured in millions - how big do you think the market would be? How long should production lines be kept producing out of date products?

Lots of open ended questions here that I'm not sure how to interpret the motivation for... How long should a company like GM that designs its own engines have to continue manufacturing replacement ones? That's not cheap... (etc.) Thinking about a mature market where we do have right to repair is a good test of these questions and helps reveal the hidden complexities. GM makes replacement parts for a while. A thriving…

Automobile service uses non-OEM parts and recycled (junkyard) parts.

I have a 1965 and 1966 Mustangs. Original body panels are difficult to find, but I’ve not found any mechanical part that was the least bit difficult (aided by high-volume production and a lot of parts crossover up through the early 90s Fox body Mustangs).

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#465

Post by JoshTko » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:24 AM UTC

operator-name wrote: post #363

JoshTko wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at this comparison. Fairphone has a smaller screen but is larger, heavier, lower quality screen, and is not dust/waterpoof, and costs double compared with the Galaxy S8. Fairphone only matches or loses on all other specs. https://versus.com/en/fairphone-3-vs-samsung-galaxy-s8

But also look at the AirPods Pro vs Galaxy Buds+: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/AirPods+Pro+Teardown/127551 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Samsung+Galaxy+Buds++Teardow... One has a zero whilst the other has a 7 by ifixit's rating.

Buds are heavier, larger by volume, and are less water resistant.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#466

Post by bjowen » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:26 AM UTC

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #203

alexvoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something. I don't see how we get back, considering the market…

They make a worthwhile distinction for ICT devices, which definitely have all those characteristics for miniaturisation. But that’s not the end of the right-to-repair story - glib example, but plenty of toasters end up in landfill, and there’s nothing complex or miniaturised about them. The market that delivers a new replacement for these things for a cost that is the same order of magnitude as a repair would be basically ensures that this will happen.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#467

Post by passivate » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #455

passivate wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with your assessment, so we have a disagreement, no biggie :) Car assembly lines were changed to include adding the seat-belt and the catalytic converter, etc, etc due to regulatory mandates. Heck they had to redesign their entire car to include crumple zones for safety! I don't think a screw is all that much. And so, electronics companies will figure out how to optimize their assembly lines to comply w…

Cars are big items. Phones are small. Worldwide car sales are tens of millions per year . Smartphone sales are hundreds of millions per quarter . So not only are phones orders of magnitude smaller than cars there's two orders of magnitude more manufactured every year. You can disagree with me all you want but it doesn't change the fact of those scales. Phones don't just pop out of a mold or an extruder. Manufacturing…

>Manufacturing billions of them is a big deal and anything making them more difficult to manufacture affects volumes.

Sorry, but the environment comes first. They'll will just have to deal with it. This problem is imminently solvable, and tractable. We put a man on the moon, we can figure out how to automate putting on a few screws and a gasket as is done with watches and other commonplace items. Or they can come up with another modular design that is still repairable. We shouldn't put an artificial limit or human creativity and ingenuity.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#468

Post by joshspankit » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:44 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #413

thinkharderdev wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the device stop working or did they just stop updating it? If it actually stopped working then I agree it is really shitty of them and even if they stopped providing security updates it is kind of shitty of them. But I think the solution is to take your business elsewhere. It's not as if Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone market and you don't have other options.

It happens gradually. A vulnerability here, a service turned down there, an app no longer available on the app store. It adds up to a device that does not do what it was advertised to do when it was new. Everything else I buy for my home (except for things with obvious wear items that physically wear out), I expect to function forever exactly as the day I purchased it, or be repairable. I have hand tools that were ma…

> an app no longer available on the app store

This is a subtle point about older devices that doesn't get enough attention imo.

In order to have an app I purchased with the features I purchased on an older device that I purchased, I must:

- Jailbreak the device

- Extract the iOS app and externally save it

- Turn off automatic updates for apps

- Be signed in to the Apple account that purchased that app

- Have that account be valid and not revoked

At some point, Apple may:

- Remove the app from the App store entirely

- Allow an update to the app that changes or removes the features that I specifically wanted

- Insist that the app does not support that older version of iOS (even if the version you purchased was fine, and only a later version removed support for older iOS versions)

In order to restore access to the app in that case I must:

- Jailbreak the device

- Sign in to that Apple account

- Copy the backed-up version of the app to the device

- Risk losing any data in that app, especially if it was updated and I'm now downgrading to a version that might not support the newer data format

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#469

Post by joshspankit » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:47 AM UTC

joshspankit wrote: post #468

ryandrake wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happens gradually. A vulnerability here, a service turned down there, an app no longer available on the app store. It adds up to a device that does not do what it was advertised to do when it was new. Everything else I buy for my home (except for things with obvious wear items that physically wear out), I expect to function forever exactly as the day I purchased it, or be repairable. I have hand tools that were ma…

> an app no longer available on the app store This is a subtle point about older devices that doesn't get enough attention imo. In order to have an app I purchased with the features I purchased on an older device that I purchased, I must: - Jailbreak the device - Extract the iOS app and externally save it - Turn off automatic updates for apps - Be signed in to the Apple account that purchased that app - Have that acc…

Source: I purchased the first iPad when it came out, and I've gone through all of these.

The first let-down was Orphion: when I purchased the app it was amazing, but they used the finger touch API in a way that Apple did not agree with. They were forced to remove that API call in an update, and the app has not been the same since. Unfortunately I did not get a copy of the original version, and so I lost access to that specific experience that I paid for.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#470

Post by joshspankit » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:13 AM UTC

IronWolve wrote: post #411

jryan49 wrote: post #228

If you want to help support right to repair (in US) consider donating to Louis Rossmann's GoFundMe for right to repair: https://www.gofundme.com/f/lets-get-right-to-repair-passed?u...

Louis explains its a david vs goliath situation, tech companies pay lobbyists to argue against right to repair. Small working repair shops cant afford to travel to these meetings, and not get paid. This is why the fund raiser, the public needs lobbyists to represent them against the corporate lobbyists. Its also bad that these companies are funding/donating to politicians to go against the publics interest.

For a really stellar example, see the Washington Right to Repair hearing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBR8IvXVwsE (Lewis at 15:10)

At one point a senator asks why someone should be restricted from replacing a fan on a broken Xbox, the lobbyist said (paraphrasing) "I hear what you're saying and am not listening, but let's do the real talking in private"

Here's a breakdown of the exchange between the senator and the lobbyist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd3Qa9tlA3o