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“About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

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Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It’s about professionalism. Flame wars at work create a hostile environment where quiet voices are silenced. It’s the same reason HN bans political flame wars.

It’s possible to ban flame wars instead of politics. Dealing with differences of opinions (or lack thereof of this skill) is what causes flame wars. Politics is not the only thing people disagree on. Should they also ban discussion of potentially contentious improvements to the codebase? Edit: reading some of the comments below, it does also say they banned discussion of certain past decisions. It’s not just politics…

> It’s possible to ban flame wars instead of politics.

I find this statement idealistic in the US, as so many issues, political or not, are turned into good-vs-evil moral confrontation. Universal care is taking freedom from citizens. Taking vaccine is big pharma's conspiracy. Wearing masks is eroding civil rights. The left is not better. J.K Rowling is already a Nazi. Any Trump supporter should be hunted and punished. Questioning Faucci is anti-science. Questioning Biden is supporting Trump. Asking a person not to graffiti on my house means losing my job for opposing the right movement. And how much hate did Bari Weiss get from her staff for an editorial decision?

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It’s about professionalism. Flame wars at work create a hostile environment where quiet voices are silenced. It’s the same reason HN bans political flame wars.

Professionalism like... mocking customers' names? On company time? Using company assets to do so?

Then say that is reason resigning, I haven’t seen a single person report that. All reports have been focused ENTIRELY on the prohibition on political speech.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#553
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Treating people right is fundamental to how we do business. We treat our customers as we’d want to be treated, we treat each other like family ... [1] Absolutely spot on. I think they had an implicit contract with their team which they broke in a fundamental way. Notable that DHH's twitter hasn't seen any expression of regret or thanks to the people who have worked hard to build Basecamp and now feel they have to g…

DHH is incapable of expressing regret in general.

Maybe the whole "we're the small guy being oppressed by Apple" thing has slightly clouded his judgement.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#554
Will be interesting to see how many of these employees take the severance when the company asks them to sign an NDA in exchange, which would likely includes a non-disparagement clause, and would also mean many of these tweets would need to be deleted.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would depend on how much I liked my job. My sense is that DHH is just a terrible boss. Note the "changes" [1] are not just "no politics" but also "no more committees" (of any kind at all; that is, no authority or responsibility except individually along line-of-report hieararchy), no more 360 degree reviews (no way to formally give feedback to your boss), and no more bringing up past decisions you disagree…

> My sense is that DHH is just a terrible boss. Interesting. I've read everything posted officially about this by the two founders as it unfolded and I've been super impressed by how well-considered these new policies are. As someone with several decades of experience as an employee, manager and then founder in both large and smaller orgs, I felt these changes were in the best interests of all stakeholders. With the…

The changes do enforce a stratification in the organization, This may have been the intent in part.

Another thought I had was that they wanted to slim the company down. In that case, you look at what you want to keep and what you want to lose. You make it easy for those who you want to leave to make that decision. If there was a faction that loved a hypothetical free breakfast, and these folks caused discontent and discomfort among others, elimination of that breakfast, and a way for them to bow out gracefully, thinking that they took the W, would be 4D chess for the stakeholders.

You may lose some people you'd prefer to keep, that's always a risk. But if you have a way to cluster the people you are reasonably happy about parting with, by noting common behaviors (the hypothetical breakfast model above), lowering their interest level for staying (removing the thing they like), while providing an incentive to leave (a pretty good severance/buy out), this is a win for most people.

I've seen various really bad takes on Twitter, that miss almost all the (fairly obvious) nuance of these moves. The bad takes seem to cluster about the "attack" on peoples "rights" to talk societal and political issues at work. And some sort of joy at seeing a company "suffer".

I don't think these are even in the right ballpark. There's lots of missing information, and we can speculate about it, in a way that resembles blindfolded dart playing.

However, the management response is pointed, and as they seem to be fairly specific, one could (likely far more accurately) speculate what caused them. And why they are being considered.

The bans on political/societal talk likely originated from conversations that made some folks quite uncomfortable, or unhappy. They were likely sustained after being advised to stop. Rather than allow such talk to disrupt the organization, the owners had to make a decision. So they did, and provided a mechanism for the most vocal folks to ease their way out.

Or at least it looks this way to me.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It’s about professionalism. Flame wars at work create a hostile environment where quiet voices are silenced. It’s the same reason HN bans political flame wars.

You mean the professionalism of the founder going off on people in petty ways after they pointed out that making fun of customer names is bad and the company should review it's culture? Or where they banned any ability to give negative feedback about management under the disguise of banning political discussions? If anything, I see everyone who is leaving as being the professional ones in this situation.

I haven’t seen this allegation. It would help the discussion if you could link to someone citing this reason.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#557

I don't think this is really about making fun of people's names, or holocaust references. It's about power. The managers at basecamp were unhappy that their employees asserted power over them in the workplace, and decided to assert their own power in turn over what they view as their personal fiefdom and retract some of the freedoms they had so graciously granted their workers, because those ungrateful workers actual…

I think this is an unfair representation and you are straw-manning the situation at least somewhat.

The company doesn't think that 'name calling' is appropriate, rather, they don't believe that this activity is the beginnings of some kind of 'race war' and object to language such as 'leads to genocide' as hyperbolic.

"unhappy that their employees asserted power over them in the workplace,"

Yes, if your staff are exerting that kind power, that's in most cases an unhealthy thing, unless there is considerably legitimacy in the assertion of that power. The 'argument' is over the legitimacy.

"over what they view as their personal fiefdom"

This is not the appropriate language: it's their company, and their responsibility. It's not a 'personal fiefdom'.

"expected them to live up to their words about openness and owning mistakes."

They did. The company doesn't support the right of individuals to 'make fun of people's names'.

It's unreasonable to believe that excessive fear-mongering such as language regarding 'leads to genocide' should be accepted at face value.

"t least 1/3 of the staff, when confronted with their true relations with their management, then decided to quit."

This is clearly not true, because 1/3 of most Americans literally today, might opt to take 6 months of severance in order to leave their jobs. I probably would.

The companies language may have been lacking in self awareness and possibly tone-deaf, but none of their policies are unreasonable.

I think it was handled poorly, but just because it was, doesn't absolve the antagonists as having perfect legitimacy.

I think from a policy perspective, things are fine, but from a 'populism' perspective, no so much. It does make me question a little bit either side, as though I'd want a lot more information to determine how bad things are either way.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It’s about professionalism. Flame wars at work create a hostile environment where quiet voices are silenced. It’s the same reason HN bans political flame wars.

From what the founders and employees have said publicly there is no indication that flame wars were a problem at Basecamp

In the US almost all political conversations descend to flame wars very quickly.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed a lot of rather wishful thinking here and on Twitter along the lines of that the people who left are all woke layabouts or whatever and that this is some genius management move. No explanation of how to reconcile these ideas with the fact that so many of these people who left were in leadership positions.

I dunno. I could find a job in a few days or weeks. But, finding a job I want to do for many years probably takes a significant portion of that 6 month period. Now, if I was already half-way out the door? Or also felt strongly about the no-politics stuff? You bet I'm taking the money and not looking back.

I believe you. But I also assume you're not dead weight your employer would be better off without. However, dead weight is what a lot of commentators online claim to think the departed employees were--and that Basecamp cleverly rid itself of them today--without any real evidence for these bold ideas.
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