“About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today” • Hacker News Board

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#451

Post by jrochkind1 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

People are gonna wanna make this about politics, but my sense is that it's really just about the owners of basecamp are crappy tyrants to work for, that's about it.

I don't think it's really even about the specific policy.

Note that the "changes" [1] also include "no more committees" (ie, no more feedback/authority/responsibilty except through the line-of-report hieararchy), "no bringing up past decisions you disagree with", and "no more 360 degree reviews" (no formal way to give feedback to your boss).

I think they are basically changes to focus on... "insubordination". Do what we say, do your job as we say it, don't have an opinion.

I think people are leaving because they don't trust or respect or feel respected by the boss, not over a single particular policy -- although in part over how little he cared what his employees opinions were about the policy.

[1] https://world.hey.com/jason/changes-at-basecamp-7f32afc5

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#452

Post by dang » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

WDCDev wrote: post #327

pantulis wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of them are also world-class Ruby developers. They seem to be mostly north americans (i could be wrong).

It doesn't take much to be a world class Ruby developer.

Please don't take HN threads into flamewar, especially not programming language flamewar, which is so shallow and never goes anywhere interesting.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#453

Post by alistairSH » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

Semiapies wrote: post #297

ipaddr wrote: post #152

Interestingly the employees who left have the best career prospects. Entire iOS team, head of marketing and head of product team. The 6 months free money is hard for anyone entering a strong job market to pass up. A lot of comments seem to think 1/3 left because of the no politics policy. 1 / 3 left because it would increase their wealth or give them the summer covid took away last year. How many people would leave y…

I've noticed a lot of rather wishful thinking here and on Twitter along the lines of that the people who left are all woke layabouts or whatever and that this is some genius management move. No explanation of how to reconcile these ideas with the fact that so many of these people who left were in leadership positions.

I dunno. I could find a job in a few days or weeks.

But, finding a job I want to do for many years probably takes a significant portion of that 6 month period.

Now, if I was already half-way out the door? Or also felt strongly about the no-politics stuff? You bet I'm taking the money and not looking back.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#454

Post by wlll » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

bdowling wrote: post #333

swyx wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

heres the list of folks who have publicly announced their departure: https://workflowy.com/s/basecamp-resignation/qrBBdTQydmTKLu0... probably has more context to each in their threads

I read the first tweet in each of those resignations. Out of 19 resignations, most give no reason for quitting. Five or so tweets cite "recent changes and new policies" as the reason. That reason is so vague that it may refer to the new policy of paying 6 months severance to employees who want to quit. edit: Excellent point below that the severance agreements probably included a non-disparagement clause, which would…

I know most of the people who left. It's the policy and the method of delivery, not the severance. The severence will make it easier to go for sure, but this is about the policy.

People seem to be making this way more complex than it is.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#455

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

bavell wrote: post #365

tashoecraft wrote: post #241

The problem with no religion and no politics is that it’s impossible to draw a line on what is politics or religion. Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. Are they wrong for mentioning that they are gay (no), but to some at the company that may be trying to advance their gay political agenda. Idk what the solution is, but just blanket “No religion/no politics” is just a way to say you…

> Let’s say you hire a gay employee, there very existence is political. With a few exceptions, I consider it very unprofessional for an employee or colleague of mine to start discussing their sexual preferences, gay or straight. I wouldn't ask for the same reason. > ... just blanket “No religion/no politics” is just a way to say you like everything the way it is and don’t want to feel uncomfortable I think you are ju…

[deleted]

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#456

Post by dang » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

All: this thread is paginated, so to see all the comments you need to click More at the bottom of the page, or like this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998127&p=2

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998127&p=3

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998127&p=4

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998127&p=5

(Posts like this will go away once we turn off pagination.)

Edit: as long as this is at the top, I'll include the related links that users have helpfully been mentioning:

What Really Happened at Basecamp - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26963708 - April 2021 (15 comments)

Changes at Basecamp - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26944192 - April 2021 (762 comments)

Behind the Controversy at Basecamp - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26963975 - April 2021 (32 comments)

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#457

Post by A_non_e-moose » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #200

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends I will be looking and reaching out to them soon. A) they are now looking for a lot of people. B) I fully agree with their idea about apolitical work spaces, and I know a lot of folks that do as well. I have quit jobs due to the BLM fanfare, you are either with us or against us mentality in the workplace where I just wanted to do my job and get paid to do so. edit: I chose BLM because it was the big thing last…

Black lives being undervalued is not a US-centric problem.

Neither is it a uniformly distributed, global problem.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#458

Post by kbenson » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:31 PM UTC

mhneu wrote: post #290

grumblestumble wrote: post #89

A lot of the conversation from the "no politics at work" crowd here is centered around "these folks were wasting company time and losing productivity protesting this". That entirely misses the point. The loss of productivity around this issue is entirely on the leadership team. They let this fester - they were complicit in allowing this dumb-ass list to be circulated around the company for years, and when it became a…

“We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” -Elie Wiesel Choosing to not discuss politics is fine. But if you do that, you’re making a choice: you’re choosing to take the side of those who prefer political decisions to be made by a small elite, without feedback from people like us. You’re choosing not to weigh in.

There's a difference between not taking a side at all, and compartmentalizing so that some things are expressed in some parts of you life and some aren't.

They said employees are not expected to curtail political speech in personal contexts or using personal accounts, just for official work accounts, where work communication is done.

That was explicitly stated, and it was also stated that employees are encouraged to speak their mind politically on their personal accounts.

This is a company setting expectations about what work time and work resources should be used for, with that explicitly not including political discussions. I think that's entirely within the expectations of most employers and employees.

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#459

Post by jrochkind1 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:31 PM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #152

Interestingly the employees who left have the best career prospects. Entire iOS team, head of marketing and head of product team. The 6 months free money is hard for anyone entering a strong job market to pass up. A lot of comments seem to think 1/3 left because of the no politics policy. 1 / 3 left because it would increase their wealth or give them the summer covid took away last year. How many people would leave y…

I think it would depend on how much I liked my job.

My sense is that DHH is just a terrible boss.

Note the "changes" [1] are not just "no politics" but also "no more committees" (of any kind at all; that is, no authority or responsibility except individually along line-of-report hieararchy), no more 360 degree reviews (no way to formally give feedback to your boss), and no more bringing up past decisions you disagreed with (!). Basically, no more employee input in anything, and a new focus on "insubordination" (they're not using this word, but these policy changes are like -- do your job, don't tell us what your opinion is about anything else in the company especially if you don't like something).

They also introduced a 10% profit-sharing plan though, which could be real money?

I don't think the people leaving -- some of whom had been there for years -- are doing it for money. I think that's not usually why people leave a place, especially when leaving without another job lined up.

I don't think it's really about the "no politics at work" policy either.

I think it's probably mostly about not trusting or respecting or feeling respected by the boss.

[1] https://world.hey.com/jason/changes-at-basecamp-7f32afc5

Re: “About one-third of Basecamp employees accepted buyouts today”

#460

Post by taftster » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 11:31 PM UTC

Doesn't Basecamp have something like ~50 employees? It's a very small company. The concerns around the current issues scale to larger companies just the same. But saying "1/3 of employees" doesn't really amount to that many people, in this specific case. It feels more hyperbole and click bait to phrase it that way.

I think the impact of this statement would be more interesting with a big company. If Amazon or Microsoft were to lose 1/3 of their workforce, that would be something big. But knowing the size of Basecamp, it just kind of makes me shrug.

I'm guessing that Basecamp will be easily able to replace those people that took the buyout and will probably just be better for it in the long run.

[edit: removed unnecessary comment-on-voting, per HN guidelines]