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Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

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Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#51

Post by ElDragonRojo »

ianterrell wrote: post #12

> Now that Sofa has been acquired by Facebook, the company’s team (ironically enough) will be moving to Palo Alto. But Lee said he doesn’t expect that to affect on Appsterdam’s future... If the founders don't believe in their own product enough to use it, it's going to fail.

You are, if you will pardon the expression, talking out of your ass.

I brought Appsterdam to Sofa. I kept Appsterdam when Sofa left. Even if I died tomorrow, Appsterdam would continue. This isn't a product. It's a movement. Its power doesn't come from its founders, it comes from its people, and our people are amazing.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#52

Post by ElDragonRojo »

grimlck wrote: post #41
DeusExMachina wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, it's for Europeans and Americans equally. But Europeans (as me) do not need a visa and can come here anytime without any problem. This is the only reason for that sentence. We had around 150 people at the launch keynote. There were some Americans, but the majority were people from around all Europe. Edit: BTW, thank you for the report, I notified the person responsible for the website about the error.

Are the events in english or in dutch?

Appsterdam events are in English. Other tech events in the city are usually some mixture of English and Dutch, depending on whether the audience is international.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#53

Post by ianterrell »

Caballera wrote: post #44
ianterrell wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was just a metaphor, and while imperfect I think it does express some grain of truth (not all of it, naturally).

I don't think what you said had any sort of truth. Sofa has been purchased by another company, they are moving because they were bought not because they don't believe in Appsterdam.

The blog post linked in your grandparent showed that one developer left the company to stay, because they believed in Appsterdam. The implication is that other developers did not. Everyone made a choice here, including the owners of Sofa when they sold.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#54

Post by econgeeker »

ElDragonRojo wrote: post #45
fmw wrote: post #34

Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (w…

Your pessimism seems endemic in European culture. It's actually a bigger problem, to my mind, than anything else you've mentioned here. As I like to say, Americans need to calm the hell down, and Europeans need a kick in the ass. Hopefully the Appsterdam movement will help us help each other, and we can find cultural bliss in the middle. I will say this though, every gay person I know is a lot less worried about bein…

I don't really disagree with anything you said, but I have to laugh at the idea of moving to germany to escape some future police state in the Netherlands. I am part german, love germany and germans, but that idea is funny. Maybe you were making a joke.

When last in berlin, I remember reading something that said "If germans were going to storm a subway station in protest, they'd all be sure to buy tickets first."

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#55

Post by ianterrell »

ElDragonRojo wrote: post #51
ianterrell wrote: post #12

> Now that Sofa has been acquired by Facebook, the company’s team (ironically enough) will be moving to Palo Alto. But Lee said he doesn’t expect that to affect on Appsterdam’s future... If the founders don't believe in their own product enough to use it, it's going to fail.

You are, if you will pardon the expression, talking out of your ass. I brought Appsterdam to Sofa. I kept Appsterdam when Sofa left. Even if I died tomorrow, Appsterdam would continue. This isn't a product. It's a movement. Its power doesn't come from its founders, it comes from its people, and our people are amazing.

Well, regardless of how it's framed or the metaphor I used, some of your amazing people just went to Palo Alto.

I wish you all the best, even if you do choose to be impolite.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#56

Post by econgeeker »

Was able to find the "Dutch American Friendship Treaty". This means it is relatively straightforward for americans to set up a business in the netherlands.

But not cheap. For a three person business, it looks like it would cost $15,000 in "capital" and around $7,500 in lawyers and other services to prepare the necessary paperwork (based on Mike Lee's estimates and the fact that our business has more than one person, so would need to incorporate.)

It seems wrong to me to put about $15k in the bank to do nothing when there's far more than that already invested in the business (Which is existing already) and the value of the business is more than that.

Will wait for the appsterdamers to get more details out. Maybe the situation is different for relocating an existing business.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#57

Post by rdouble »

ElDragonRojo wrote: post #50
rdouble wrote: post #22

Amsterdam is neat but the Dutch hackers I know all choose to live in California because of the weather.

Rain doesn't bother me. Smog bothers me. Tasers bother me. Not being able to afford healthcare bothers me. My family has been in California for six generations, and I love it, but you can have it. I'll take the Netherlands.

What made you choose Amsterdam instead of Berlin, Barcelona, Paris or other European city?

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#58

Post by boredzo »

ianterrell wrote: post #55
ElDragonRojo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are, if you will pardon the expression, talking out of your ass. I brought Appsterdam to Sofa. I kept Appsterdam when Sofa left. Even if I died tomorrow, Appsterdam would continue. This isn't a product. It's a movement. Its power doesn't come from its founders, it comes from its people, and our people are amazing.

Well, regardless of how it's framed or the metaphor I used, some of your amazing people just went to Palo Alto. I wish you all the best, even if you do choose to be impolite.

ElDragonRojo had technical difficulties replying here, so he posted his reply on his blog instead. With his permission, here's what he wanted to tell you here:

---

Sorry if I came across as impolite. Like I said, pardon the expression. It may have been inappropriately colorful. All I meant was that you’re talking about things you don’t know anything about.

I had the idea for Appsterdam and got things rolling. Sofa wanted to help out, but then they got offered a lot of money to move to the Valley. That’s great for them, and great for us, because that means we’ll have that many more Appsterdammers with Valley experience and investment money.

To suggest that their move in anyway represents a lack of faith in Appsterdam is just wrong. They don’t think that. I don’t think that. Nobody thinks that, except for you.

It’s also meaningless. Sofa did not found Appsterdam. I did. Sofa did not build Appsterdam, our army of volunteers did. Sofa designed our logo and website, but we get to keep those when they leave.

So even if they hated Appsterdam with the fire of a thousand suns, it wouldn’t doom us to failure. It wouldn’t even slow us down. We didn’t get to work together long enough for their leaving to impact us at all.

So your premise is wrong, and your conclusion is wrong, because you are working on no knowledge. You made a venomous statement that misrepresents things for no other reason than to be a naysayer.

Then, when you got caught by the people whose lives you are actually talking about, you tried to pass it off as a metaphor, even though that makes no sense at all, unless we accept the unlikely conclusion that you don’t actually know what a metaphor is or how to construct one.

That’s all I meant. I didn’t mean to be rude. Sorry if I offended.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#59

Post by [deleted] »

boredzo wrote: post #58
ianterrell wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, regardless of how it's framed or the metaphor I used, some of your amazing people just went to Palo Alto. I wish you all the best, even if you do choose to be impolite.

ElDragonRojo had technical difficulties replying here, so he posted his reply on his blog instead. With his permission, here's what he wanted to tell you here: --- Sorry if I came across as impolite. Like I said, pardon the expression. It may have been inappropriately colorful. All I meant was that you’re talking about things you don’t know anything about. I had the idea for Appsterdam and got things rolling. Sofa wa…

[deleted]

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#60

Post by pg »

spif wrote: post #33
pg wrote: post #11

I've always felt Amsterdam would make a good startup hub. It has the right sort of atmosphere. Civilized without being pretentious.

The startup scene _is_ growing into a hub actually, although some elements (e.g. capital) are hard, others easier (hiring, advice). That feels like an honor coming from you, thanks. Have you been in Amsterdam often?

I've only visited for real once, about 5 years ago. We borrowed a friend's apartment near the center for about a week. I don't think I've seen anywhere else where people live so well.
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