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EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

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Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#631
post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing a straw man, and it’s quite obvious the price of hardware doesn’t cover the cost of iOS development because iPhones don’t cost much more than Android flagships, where the smartphone maker gets the OS for nearly free (and with little after-sales support!).

You are weirdly confused trying to compare two different things. Apple's financial results are public and you should check them because you will see that they make a massive amount of profit on their iphones, and they actively separates those numbers from their "services" (appstore and icloud) numbers. Apple themselves disagree with you in their financial statement.

It’s really unclear what your point is or how you are engaging with my question about accounting for the “costs” of running the 2nd most successful application platform in history, after the web. It is undoubtedly much higher than the cost of running a store, but how much?

iPhone gross margins are about 35%. Even if it was a loss leader, $350 for five years of iOS is obviously underpriced, so I’m not sure what you mean with your reference to financial statements.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#632
post #579
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point. If you're serving a file from AWS to ten people or to a massive userbase what happens ? Does AWS pricing change once you have a certain amount of traffic ? No, you pay per GB delivered. Apple should offer that kind of pricing, or a price per user (download) if they want. And Apple should also be free to offer the % as an alternative if they wish, "don't want to bother with details ? Jus…

Your flat fee model would really suck for free apps.

Advertisements in apps is a way to circumvent the app store fee currently, yes. That is bad, it means that ads pay close 50% more compared to selling apps compared to what they should, meaning Apples policy likely massively increased the number of ad based apps compared to purchasable apps. Forcing them to pay their fair share makes sense for everyone.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently had a change of heart on this issue when the prevalence of fraudulent apps on the App Store was documented[1]. It's hard to argue that Apple is providing significant benefit to either consumers or developers for their 30% cut when they seem incapable of reigning in obvious fraud. In addition, I think Apple pushing subscriptions as a solution for long term app funding (instead of upgrade pricing or other op…

> has resulted in apps as simple as text editors or todo apps needlessly becoming subscription services On the PC I have a mail app that turned into a subscription service and there are downsides. I have a lifetime license and get all the updates because I bought it before it went subscription based. Now it feels like there’s a relentless push for more features every month to justify the subscription. Every month the…

> And the subscription costs 3x what I pay for my mailbox at Zoho. Sorry, but your stupid email client isn’t worth more than what my email provider charges me.

Niche products will always charge more than the mass-market alternative. There isn't another sustainable business model for small companies.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#634
post #102

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People pretend that for-profit entities are supposed to build platform as a public good. When in fact corporations are incentivized by the market to be a monopoly.

Apple aren't even close to a monopoly. If the app store wasn't useful to the public the public wouldn't use it.

> Apple aren't even close to a monopoly.

Let's see if the EU says "No, it is" and shakes apple for some money.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#635
post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

Do open/free apps still need to pay these flat prices to be listed, downloaded, reviewed?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#636

> “Once again, they want all the benefits of the App Store but don’t think they should have to pay anything for that.” lol , it's not like there is an alternative...

I thinks what Apple is arguing is that the benefit is having access to, and the opportunity to sell to, users of iOS devices.

If Target wants to charge for shelf space I don’t see why Apple shouldn’t be able to charge for the use of their platform in any capacity.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple loses the ability to collectively bargain on behalf of users. Without being overly smug here: Good. Apple have been terrible stewards of the platform. Arguably better than Google, but that's a bar so low a deep-bore drilling machine couldn't clear it. The app store is overrun with scams, the approval process is nonobjective and unreliable, and prohibits entire classes of useful software on shaky moralizing grou…

> If Apple doesn't like the EU's rules why not just stop doing business there? What rules? These are proposals for rules, and also lawsuits. There are arguments that have merit on both sides. But yea sure, if it was me and I were Tim Cook and had unlimited authority and the E.U. made Apple open up to 3rd party App Stores I'd pull the iPhone from Europe. Bad business decision most likely, but principled at least. Inst…

>Bad business decision most likely, but principled at least.

Are you trolling? Apple and principles ? They are giving Chinese customers information to the government and do bussiness with Saudi Arabia that would execute all those gay Apple executives if they could, are this principles??? Or you mean "Ferengi principles"

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't remotely equivalent or comparable. First, you're free to choose other forms of payment. Visa isn't holding a gun to your head. I know many sellers simply adjust their prices if you're paying credit -- see almost every gas station in the US. You can't do that with Apple. Second, the fees actually benefit the customer. They're there to protect the customer from fraud, and to provide perks. I have no idea how…

> Comically, I think Apple should adapt Epic's model for unreal: free for the first $1MM of revenue, only then they start to take a cut. They're halfway there. Apple only takes 15% (instead of 30%) if your annual app store revenue is under $1M.

Technically not really true, it's based on a complex system where if your run rate ever exceeds $1m (even temporarily) you get bumped into the 30% bracket for this year and the next year, even if your revenue next year is 100k. (I'm still confused that they decided to make the system that complicated, it can't increase their profits THAT much.)

This system coincidentally punishes non-subscription products like non-IAP games, where your "launch" produces a big revenue spike and then you have a much smaller long tail of revenue. To avoid getting punished by this, you'd have to optimize for a lower-revenue launch and more stable long-term revenue... i.e. a subscription.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your comment is completely divorced from the situation on the ground when it comes to app development Perhaps it is. > The UI has changed overtime, sometime substantially, How so? I see an app in the store. I install it. An icon shows up on my screen. I tap it to open it. A window is shown where I can type text in. If I receive a phone call or text message, something is displayed on the screen to alert me to that f…

> > The UI has changed overtime, sometime substantially, > How so? I see an app in the store. I install it. An icon shows up on my screen. I tap it to open it. From iOS 6->7 there was a huge UI change where they went from a skeuomorphic design to a much flatter design. Every year since then they tweaked the design of iOS. Sometimes it might be as easy as building your app against the newer SDK to get the updated look…

Thank you for the very thoroughly detailed reply!

> I'd be very wary of using it on anything new.

That makes sense and I can understand it. On the other hand, the a text editor and todo app aren't exactly new apps ideas.

> "Save this note to Dropbox" or "Open Twitter with this note's content as the tweet" and the list goes on.

Perhaps this is a failing on my part again but... how is that an app problem? If the user has a Dropbox account or Twitter account then don't those provide the services through the OS? So every app works with Dropbox (or Nextcloud or Google Drive or their local filesystem) and every app can share a link to Twitter (or to Nextcloud or Slack or Discord or Twitch or ...). Why does the app need special integrations with the provider?

I would argue that's a failure of Dropbox or Twitter. They shouldn't provide APIs or toolkits that apps need to use. They should integrate with the OS and become a provider of services to the OS. Then every app gets the ability to save things to Dropbox or post something to Twitter.

> Apollo lets you use the base app for free but for nice/power-user features you have to pay for a subscription.

Cool. Apollo isn't a text editor or a todo app though.

> I have plenty of iOS games that have died because they were never updated. I paid for them once and now they don't run at all on my phone

I assume they don't run on your current phone. Do they still run on your old phone?

> Mobile development is difficult and needs to be ongoing which leads us to subscriptions seeing how there isn't a better method out there that I'm aware of.

Mobile development doesn't need to be difficult. It's made difficult by Apple's continuously-moving goalposts.

> BBEdit charges for the new major versions of it's app and to me, if you are releasing on a regular schedule, that's pretty much the same as a subscription.

In many ways, I agree. But there's one important distinction. I can pull up my old Mac OS 9 machine and run my old BBEdit on it. I'd be willing to bet that if I bought BBEdit ten years ago for Mac OS X on Intel then it would still run on today's Mac OS X even if it doesn't have all of the fancy new features of a new version.

> Subscriptions help solve part of that problem by incentivizing developers to keep their apps updated or people will leave for ones that do.

I don't have a problem whatsoever paying for new features that I want and use.

What I have a problem with is this:

> apps as simple as text editors or todo apps needlessly becoming subscription services

Basic text editors and todo apps were solved decades ago. Why do users need to pay for simple text editors as a subscription service? That's a failure of Apple's ecosystem.

You clearly want to migrate the discussion to continued developer support and new features. So let's do that then.

Let me walk you through my experience. I want to use a terminal on my iPhone. I know that I get terminals for free in Mac OS, Linux, and even Windows has a command prompt. They're literally free. So I see the lack of one in iOS as anti-consumer. Or, most definitely, anti-power-user. But whatever. In Apple's infinite wisdom, users shouldn't have a terminal emulator. So off to the app store I go to search for one.

The first result for "terminal" is Termius. It says it needs `in-app purchases`. In-app purchases for a terminal emulator? That sounds like a scam.

The next one, xTerminal, also needs in-app purchses.

The third one, LibTerm, doesn't say that it needs in-app purchases. But it's 448.7MB in size. Why the hell does a terminal emulator need that much storage to install? Nope, sounds like malware.

The fourth one, SSH Client, also wants in-app purchases.

I've scrolled two pages and all four of the top results smell fishy. So I don't install a terminal on my phone. I keep using Linux because it does what I want for free.

Tech marching on doesn't need to bring scammy baggage with it. Apple's walled garden ecosystem has brought that. And they're not policing their walled garden against anti-consumer behavior.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#640
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is, when you own the platform and you start competing on that platform you have an advantage that can be misused. Except every platform ever built is there to get an unfair advantage. That’s the endgame for all the companies. Why would you build a platform otherwise? There’s a perpetual growth expectation after all.

I think Valve is a good example of how to do it. Sure they also take a sizeable chunk out of sales, but they seem to compete on the same terms with their games with everyone else on Steam. Going so far as to clearly make an unfair advantage doesn't make sense if your platform is already printing more money than you could reasonably spend. As is the case with Apple, and with Valve. Music sales are probably a drop in t…

> They just got greedy and started acting like assholes when it came to their competition.

I think we can all find examples when platforms were not "greedy" and eventually got pushed out as irrelevant. That's why Apple and others will try to leverage their position to promote their new services.

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