EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#611

Post by trinix912 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

Sebb767 wrote: post #600

nolok wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I absolutely agree. Like another commenter said below, another similar thing are payment processors fees, but it works because 1. you're free to use another one, or checks, or cash, or bitcoin, or anything else, and 2. the EU has strongly regulated their fees and imposed massive limits on what they can charge in %.

But are they similar? One could argue that Visa and PayPal have a monopoly on payments processed via the Visa network/PayPal credit. Consumers are free to choose another ecosystem, but if they don't, the business is forced to make business with them. Similarly, the consumer can choose to buy an Android (or have to phones/tablets), but if they choose Apple only, the business needs to work with Apple.

Yes, but if you have a VISA card you can still withdraw the money and pay in cash right? That's an alternative that doesn't involve switching over to another ecosystem.

Also, the EU regulations cap the fees and set up identical rules for everyone (unlike Apple where its own services are left through without a second thought even though they don't necessarily operate to the code).

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

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Post by thayne » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

lodovic wrote: post #402

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats a violation of freemarket

Say you buy a can of Coke at Walmart. Would Coca-Cola be allowed to print on that can that it can be bought for less at 7-Eleven?

The way I've seen the rules inforced (though inconsistently) it would be more like walmart not letting Coke put their website on the can, because you can buy coke directly from the website.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#613

Post by nolok » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

solarkraft wrote: post #128

oblio wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly more hidden anti competitive behavior is still that.

For sure, but it seems like most law makers are easily distracted by some mirrors and a bit of smoke. I'm not sure the EU won't be, but that we've gotten this far provides some hope.

Margrethe Vestager (the european commissioner for competition since 2014) is not that kind of fool, if you look at her history since she got that job. And since 2019 she's also been named "President of the European Commission for A Europe Fit for the Digital Age" so I think this matter is not something she will ignore easily.

She's one of the absolute best thing to happen to the EU, and has proven to be willing to do what it takes to protect competitivity on the market.

On HN she's often seen in tech news and thus could appear to be "against US companies only" but far from it, eg in 2019 she blocked the giant merger of Alstom and Siemens trains divisions against the will of both the German and French government.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#614

Post by Siira » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #399

alickz wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just look at what a mess this is on the PC where there are a million launchers Which has resulted in some much needed competition for Steam, particularly around dev cuts. Also just look at macOS, would anyone really prefer to only be able to install mac apps from the Mac App Store? Would the benefits of forcing users and devs through the Mac App Store outweigh the benefits of users being able to install whichever s…

Users sideloading apps on their phones is likely to be a benefit to like 5,000 people and an attack vector for 3 billion. As for Steam, you don't have to use it as a game publisher, as in you could always sell physical media (up until the past few years) or a download. As a consumer I'll pretty much always prefer buying a game through Steam. I hate all these other launchers that you have to now use for like one title…

> like 5,000 people

Says you. Piracy and sanctions alone will make millions use these, not to mention any other uses.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#615

Post by thow-01187 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

danity wrote: post #530

paulpan wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the percentage of Apple's cut isn't the key part of this EU case. Certainly doesn't help that it's the current 30% but it being 15% won't change the fundamental issues being argued - whether Apple is abusing its market power and shutting competitors out of or subjecting them to unfair practices in its iOS ecosystem. E.g. unfairly favoring its own Music app. I think it's a fairly straightforward case similar to…

The main difference with Microsoft is that Apple does not have a monopoly in phones like Microsoft had with PCs. Apple phones make up only 13% of the phone market.

Every time App/Play store fees are discussed, it devolves into unproductive hair-splitting over the word monopoly. The proper term is captive market.

> Captive markets are markets where the potential consumers face a severely limited number of competitive suppliers; their only choices are to purchase what is available or to make no purchase at all

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#616

Post by Sebb767 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

trinix912 wrote: post #611

Sebb767 wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are they similar? One could argue that Visa and PayPal have a monopoly on payments processed via the Visa network/PayPal credit. Consumers are free to choose another ecosystem, but if they don't, the business is forced to make business with them. Similarly, the consumer can choose to buy an Android (or have to phones/tablets), but if they choose Apple only, the business needs to work with Apple.

Yes, but if you have a VISA card you can still withdraw the money and pay in cash right? That's an alternative that doesn't involve switching over to another ecosystem. Also, the EU regulations cap the fees and set up identical rules for everyone (unlike Apple where its own services are left through without a second thought even though they don't necessarily operate to the code).

> Yes, but if you have a VISA card you can still withdraw the money and pay in cash right? That's an alternative that doesn't involve switching over to another ecosystem.

Isn't VISA somewhat similar to an ecosystem? It's not perfect (you can not switch over all apps when switching from/to Android), but you still need to change something on your side. Yes, exchanging a plastic card is easier than switching a phone, but it's not fundamentally a different paradigm.

> Also, the EU regulations cap the fees and set up identical rules for everyone

I agree that this is a good idea, but it's not a fundamental problem with Apple's payment structure.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#617

Post by saurik » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #359

saurik wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Android devices--and certainly all the good ones--are almost as locked down as iOS: Android has a bit more extensibility points, and sideloading has fewer restrictions, but it isn't like an Android device is some open "run anything you want" playing field (hell: the original Android G1 needed a jailbreak!!); and, really, if you analyze that market carefully, Samsung pretty much owns it with like 95% of the profi…

The only thing between you and infinite control on most Android devices, including pixels, is repeatedly tapping the About entry in the menu.

Huh?... developer mode on an Android device doesn't even give you root access (which isn't that powerful these days due to SELinux), much less "infinite control": if you want to modify the lock screen or how notifications work or any other myriad things that Android doesn't provide extensibility points for, you need to jailbreak your device, just as you would for iOS. Some devices provide the ability to do an official "bootloader unlock", which actually gives you real control, but the vast majority do not.

(aside) The lack of basic understanding of how all of these restrictions work is so annoyingly pervasive that I have seriously been in arguments with people at conferences who are adamant about how open these Android devices are, and then when I challenge them what device they have they have a jailbroken Samsung on Verizon (the worst combo) and I have to walk them down memory lane to remind them of what exploit they must have downloaded (as I used to know most of the key players; I've taken a step back from the DEFCON scene, though, as the toxicity was getting to me).

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#618

Post by saurik » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

perryizgr8 wrote: post #296

saurik wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Android devices--and certainly all the good ones--are almost as locked down as iOS: Android has a bit more extensibility points, and sideloading has fewer restrictions, but it isn't like an Android device is some open "run anything you want" playing field (hell: the original Android G1 needed a jailbreak!!); and, really, if you analyze that market carefully, Samsung pretty much owns it with like 95% of the profi…

That's why Google and Samsung need to be sued in a similar fashion, too.

Agree. FWIW, in Epic's battle, they also chose to sue Google; we just don't hear as much about the case.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#619

Post by npunt » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #553

vlozko wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s fixed components to the cost as well as variable ones. Storage/CDN distribution is relatively fixed. I would say so is access to developer tools and APIs. What’s variable are services that an app may take advantage of, such as push notifications, geolocation queries, iCloud access, and App Store approvals. More established companies tend to release new versions on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.

> What’s variable are services that an app may take advantage of, such as push notifications Why are push notifications an Apple service? Wouldn't we be better off moving that into the apps?

Apple runs APNS which handles delivery of non-local notifications to all iOS devices.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#620

Post by indigochill » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #435

nolok wrote: post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

I recently had a change of heart on this issue when the prevalence of fraudulent apps on the App Store was documented[1]. It's hard to argue that Apple is providing significant benefit to either consumers or developers for their 30% cut when they seem incapable of reigning in obvious fraud. In addition, I think Apple pushing subscriptions as a solution for long term app funding (instead of upgrade pricing or other op…

> Overall, Apple has not been a good steward of the App Store.

But the question on my mind is: what precedent are we setting by legally mandating what a corporation can do on a platform they solely built? And are we pulling up the ladder after the incumbents have climbed it?

It's one thing to mandate how much pollution a factory may leak into a shared water supply. But the Apple app store is not a utility or natural resource. Apple built it from nothing and they're its sole owner. If it's a crappy experience, the solution to me still seems to be to migrate to a competitor (I'm toying with the idea of trading my Galaxy for a Librem 5).

There seems to be a mentality that megacorps have to have their hand held to not be public menaces, but by doing this my fear is we fortify Goliath rather than giving David a shot to kill him. The main reason I see this hasn't happened yet is that we've let the giants get away with corporate murder (e.g. Facebook's acquisition of both Instagram and WhatsApp), not because innovation is dead.

And national regulation is a pretty patchwork solution anyway to corporations that can (and sometimes do) go toe-to-toe with national governments.