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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#281

Post by djoldman »

I believe that this right to repair stuff is really a reflection of a superceding market breakdown: oligopolistic power.

Consumers want to do what they like with the things they own and some want the information needed to repair those things. Some companies don't have to offer this information or can get away with locking down their devices because they are immune from competition. This immunity is generally acquired by having the best product but then maintained by an abuse of market share.

The solution is to encourage competition somehow. If someone made a tractor that could compete with John Deere, John Deere might be forced to entice consumers with the feature of repairability.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#282

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

CountSessine wrote: post #222
OrwellianChild wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you articulate what that has to do with repairability?

For one thing, I think it's an important point to make when someone else makes the, "look how repairability has regressed since the golden era of getting the Apple II schematics in the box with the computer!". At the time, design was cheap. Why not give it to your customers? It's not like they're going to go out and make one themselves. The fact that manufacturing is cheap now and schematics are not only the key to r…

I think Americans are still largely clueless about how extensively the PRC has infiltrated the governments and companies of the world, and how much IP they have stolen. If they want it; they have it. Heck, my company is doing everything they can to prevent users from messing with our firmware, but we have to give all the keys to China to sell our products there. All they had to do was ask. There’s no need to make it hard for owners to get to.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#283

Post by tachyonbeam »

globular-toast wrote: post #130
tachyonbeam wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Apple or Google have to open source every part of their software. They just have to make it possible for us to install alternative operating systems on their computing platforms. That would allow giving older devices new life by putting Linux on them, for example. A fully unlocked iPhone 6 with Linux on it could be very useful.

Only if they're selling a computer. I've never wanted my phone to be a computer (although I don't mind if it is).

Good for you. You don't have to install Linux on your phone, but it would be better for the planet (eg: recycling) if we all could.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#284

Post by devoutsalsa »

nousermane wrote: post #218
35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something. I don't see how we get back, considering the market…

You can choose to forgo owning stuff personally, sure. But that is not everybody's preference. And please don't pretend that "devices aren't built around discrete components anymore". There are plenty of discrete components in a modern phone/laptop/roomba/whatever, that could be replaceable/upgradable by advanced user or entry-level technician, but are not: - battery - screen - storage - RAM - list goes on and on...

A big reason that stuff isn't replaceable anymore is because consumers wants some of the benefits that come w/ non-replaceable parts.

For example, it's nice that I can drop my iPhone in water w/o worrying (too much) about destroying it. I spent ~$1500 on an iPhone 12 Pro in November & dropped it in a lake in December. Part of the reason it's (more) waterproof if because it's not covered w/ ports/hatches/openings that would allow me swap out the battery/RAM/SSD/something. If I had to choose between having a fully customizable phone & one that doesn't die when it gets wet, I think I'd rather have one that resists water.

Just one person's opinion.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#285

Post by gsich »

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #203
alexvoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something. I don't see how we get back, considering the market…

Doesn't have to. It's not that much to ask to release documentation or code.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#286

Post by kaibee »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #209
alexvoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

>Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. Nearly every electronic device I bought in the 1970s did not have included schematics. TI-55, Pong console, digital watches, Speak'n'Spell, transistor radios, Mattell football and baseball handhelds, Simon... and on and on. Nearly everything then was also not easily repairable, and certainly not by an average consumer.

> Nearly everything then was also not easily repairable, and certainly not by an average consumer.

Sure, but repair shops could exist that would specialize in doing all sorts of repairs.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#287

Post by kiba »

LexGray wrote: post #279
datameta wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set aside software RTR, which at first glance I believe has no increased costs associated (besides a decreased profit margin from lack of shortened support windows and a locked-down ecosystem). Could you expand on the specifics of what changes RTR would necessitate the hardware to have? Let's say beyond the fact that a non-reversible bond/connector would otherwise be the cheapest option (saving perhaps fraction…

Mandated right repair would raise weight for battery containers and latches, higher failure as connections would not be soldered in place and hinges and latches may fail, less water resistance as seals may get bumped loose, easier access for hardware hacks for bad actors, more potential consumer injury device damage during repair attempts, and more likely fire scenarios in planes and public areas from incorrectly ins…

Sounds like exaggeration or either overblown concerns. It's also ignoring the fact that manufacturers going out of their way to make a device deliberately more difficult to repair rather than just implementing tradeoffs.

It's one thing to have a waterproof phone that you need specialty tools to fix it, it's another thing when manufacturers try to make repairing deliberately more difficult than it should be, such as limiting the sale of OEM components or using security screws.

Either way, your thought what Right to Repair is only one version/proposal of what RtR.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#288

Post by vkou »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #284
nousermane wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can choose to forgo owning stuff personally, sure. But that is not everybody's preference. And please don't pretend that "devices aren't built around discrete components anymore". There are plenty of discrete components in a modern phone/laptop/roomba/whatever, that could be replaceable/upgradable by advanced user or entry-level technician, but are not: - battery - screen - storage - RAM - list goes on and on...

A big reason that stuff isn't replaceable anymore is because consumers wants some of the benefits that come w/ non-replaceable parts. For example, it's nice that I can drop my iPhone in water w/o worrying (too much) about destroying it. I spent ~$1500 on an iPhone 12 Pro in November & dropped it in a lake in December. Part of the reason it's (more) waterproof if because it's not covered w/ ports/hatches/openings that…

> A big reason that stuff isn't replaceable anymore is because consumers wants some of the benefits that come w/ non-replaceable parts.

This may be true, but we shouldn't confuse 'a decision made by a product manager' with 'the customers want this'.

Some design decisions succeed because of the other strengths of a product (and the competition cargo-cult copies them), not because they are good design decisions. Some design decisions are made because they are more convenient for the vendor, not better for the customer. Some design decisions are made because of inertia. Pointing to any particular design trade-off in a successful product, and saying that 'Well, this is obviously what the market wants' is not always a correct conclusion to draw.

USB is unarguably the most successful mechanism for two hardware devices to communicate with each-other in history, and yet you need to flip the cable over three times before you can plug it in. Should we conclude that customers want to play the cable fandango every time they plug one device into another?

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#289

Post by ghaff »

echelon wrote: post #213
35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something. I don't see how we get back, considering the market…

> it'd rather treat devices as things that we lease for a low cost from a vertically-integrated company. This is a nightmare. I built my PC, I repair my phone and laptops. I replace joysticks and mod old gaming consoles. I fix my own car. I don't want the industry following Apple into the depths of hell. We used to be allowed to record tv shows on VHS legally. Look how far we've slid down the path of non-ownership. W…

>We used to be allowed to record tv shows on VHS legally. Look how far we've slid down the path of non-ownership.

What's changed that prevents you from doing that today? I'm guessing the answer is: "But that's a crappy alternative to what people watching Netflix or even renting DVDs are doing." And I would agree with that. (Though in the case of music, owning versus renting is still very much a legitimate choice at least for me.)

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#290

Post by RHSeeger »

alwaysdoit wrote: post #217
OrwellianChild wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your approach will always be a valid choice, for those who want it, and companies will be happy to provide that device-as-a-service model. R2R is just seeking to preserve the practical access to repairability for those who want to service their own devices.

No it's not, it's looking to enshrine that standard by law for everyone. Nothing is stopping consumers from demanding phones that are self-serviceable, they just simply aren't willing to accept the tradeoffs involved (larger size, worse thermals, higher price, etc). If you disagree, there's an unserved market segment wide open for you!

History is full of things that people did not want to mandate via their purchases, but we as a society decided was important... so we made it legally mandatory.
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