It's your device, you should be able to repair it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#121

Post by beefalo » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #98

II2II wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the author kept moving the goalpost since we have lost so much over the years. Take that legacy software. For many technologies the software is not distinguishable from the hardware to the end user, yet faulty software could present a security risk or even pose physical danger. At the same time, vendors are dropping support for software at an accelerated rate while making it impossible to use third party fixe…

Are they also going to force "the right to sell" instead of rent? Nothing is stopping companies from renting instead of selling their products. We already see that with software, no one is trying to sell software these days, it's all subscriptions. It could happen with hardware, in which case you don't have the right to repair since it never belonged to you.

Most cell phones are leased already today

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#122

Post by JoshTko » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

leoedin wrote: post #53

PCs and even most laptops have been very repairable for decades. You can still run Windows or Linux on a 10+ (20+?) year old laptop without an issue. The idea that a 5 year old laptop would be unusable or not get the latest version of Windows is unacceptable. Yet phones cost similar amounts and have nowhere near the repairability. A decade ago you could argue that it wasn't that important - specs were changing so qui…

The trend for lack of reparability in smartphones is because of consumer preferences. Consumers are consistently choosing devices that are smaller, lighter, higher durability, waterproof, cheaper etc. vs. devices that are more repairable that do not have those features.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#123

Post by tachyonbeam » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

I don't think Apple or Google have to open source every part of their software. They just have to make it possible for us to install alternative operating systems on their computing platforms. That would allow giving older devices new life by putting Linux on them, for example. A fully unlocked iPhone 6 with Linux on it could be very useful.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#124

Post by II2II » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #98

II2II wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the author kept moving the goalpost since we have lost so much over the years. Take that legacy software. For many technologies the software is not distinguishable from the hardware to the end user, yet faulty software could present a security risk or even pose physical danger. At the same time, vendors are dropping support for software at an accelerated rate while making it impossible to use third party fixe…

Are they also going to force "the right to sell" instead of rent? Nothing is stopping companies from renting instead of selling their products. We already see that with software, no one is trying to sell software these days, it's all subscriptions. It could happen with hardware, in which case you don't have the right to repair since it never belonged to you.

Depending upon what you mean by "sell", I can assure you that software sales are still happening. (Though it's probably better to describe it as selling a license for an indeterminate period. I also suspect the "indeterminate period" part will result in an increasing number of legal actions.)

Fundamentally, the repairs and sales are different things. A consumer knows whether they are making a purchase or renting when paying for a product. A consumer is much less likely to know what the extended support (i.e. out of warranty) options are, and they are subject to change as time goes on anyhow. This means that the market is less likely to accept a scenario where everything is rented and more likely to end up in a scenario where nothing is repairable.

That being said, I suspect the right to buy would become an issue if every vendor switched to rentals or subscriptions only.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#125

Post by joshspankit » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #95

css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

If we are going to allow software patents on the basis that software is a device, then laws affecting physical devices should apply to software as well.

I’m curious but don’t know what laws you’re suggesting. Could you dig a bit deeper?

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#126

Post by AdrianB1 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #52

david_allison wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairphone[0] is a European manufacturer which does this (modular replaceable components, 10/10 on iFixit and usable by non-techies). In my experience it's the annual release cycle of Android coupled with the lack of OS updates by manufacturers which contributes to e-waste, closely followed by the lack of battery replaceability. My first smartphone (OnePlus One - 2014) still has the specs to be a perfectly usable phon…

Can anyone enlighten me about 5G? To me it seems to be absolutely nothing more than a marketing tool meant to sell a new generation of phones and phone plans. The fact that it is pushed so fervently just sets of red flags galore for me. 4G is plenty fast and works well for me. I see nothing gained for my phone by going from 100Mbps to 1Gbps(?). Nothing. But its pushed like the second coming of Christ.

For the average consumer, mind blowing stereoscopic ultra high definition 3D porn with no lag or buffering. /s

On paper there are benefits, at this time there is no killer need for it.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#127

Post by david_allison » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #52

david_allison wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairphone[0] is a European manufacturer which does this (modular replaceable components, 10/10 on iFixit and usable by non-techies). In my experience it's the annual release cycle of Android coupled with the lack of OS updates by manufacturers which contributes to e-waste, closely followed by the lack of battery replaceability. My first smartphone (OnePlus One - 2014) still has the specs to be a perfectly usable phon…

Can anyone enlighten me about 5G? To me it seems to be absolutely nothing more than a marketing tool meant to sell a new generation of phones and phone plans. The fact that it is pushed so fervently just sets of red flags galore for me. 4G is plenty fast and works well for me. I see nothing gained for my phone by going from 100Mbps to 1Gbps(?). Nothing. But its pushed like the second coming of Christ.

I'm excited. Not for a specific use-case, but because it removes constraints and that lets developers push the boundaries of what's possible.

As a European, I predict it'll be a catalyst for American companies to rethink data caps and data pricing, as you can blow through a data cap 10x as fast. That'll be massive and measurable progress.

Paraphrasing Liebig's law of the minimum[0]: progress is hindered by the most scarce resource. I'm sure that bandwidth will have been that resource for some ideas. These ideas will have been 'before their time' a few years ago, and are now viable.

Take spellcheckers[1], and electron-based apps: they've moved very quickly from "impossible" to "an everyday occurrence", I hope 5G enable this for another class of problem, and I hope it's unpredictable.

I don't have a 5G phone, I don't plan to get one any time soon, I'll have one in 10 years time, and I'm excited to see what comes of it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig%27s_law_of_the_minimum

[1]: https://prog21.dadgum.com/29.html

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#128

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

tims33 wrote: post #68

scrose wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We used to have this right, but it feels like somewhere between 2010-2015, companies realized they could make more money by disallowing simple replacements. I used to make some money as a kid by buying batches of broken Iphone 3G/3GS's on ebay, replacing parts on them, and then re-selling them myself. Practically any part of that device could be replaced in less than 30 minutes with $15 worth of tools. I have a 2012M…

Our expectations on the size and integrated nature of these devices seem to be the thing that caused everything to get glued together.

I took apart my old smartphone at one point. It was old enough that the battery was attached with screws and connected to the board with a cable and a connector.

It's not bigger than existing phones. It doesn't weigh more, it's not thicker. The weight of a battery connector and a couple of screws is what, a couple of grams, if that?

"We needed to make it thinner" is just an excuse.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#129

Post by JoshTko » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

balozi wrote: post #26

A persistent question in my mind is why do customers buy unrepairable products, from smart phones and high-tech tractors. Why is the market failing? Or is it working perfectly?

The market is working as expected. Consumers are choosing devices that are less reparable because they come with other benefits such as being smaller, lighter, and are waterproof. Reparable devices come with tradeoffs that most consumers do not want.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#130

Post by globular-toast » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #123

css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

I don't think Apple or Google have to open source every part of their software. They just have to make it possible for us to install alternative operating systems on their computing platforms. That would allow giving older devices new life by putting Linux on them, for example. A fully unlocked iPhone 6 with Linux on it could be very useful.

Only if they're selling a computer. I've never wanted my phone to be a computer (although I don't mind if it is).