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Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

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Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#41

Post by grimlck »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #24
rjh29 wrote: post #21

I thought this was funny: http://appsterdam.rs/events Starts: Wednesday 06/29/2011 - 19:00 Ends: Wednesday 06/29/2011 - 19:00 US-dates coupled with "Americans can visit for three months without a visa. Pack up the family for a summer vacation in Europe." make me wonder how much this thing is targeting Americans over, you know, us Europeans who don't already have a Silicon Valley.

Don't worry, it's for Europeans and Americans equally. But Europeans (as me) do not need a visa and can come here anytime without any problem. This is the only reason for that sentence. We had around 150 people at the launch keynote. There were some Americans, but the majority were people from around all Europe. Edit: BTW, thank you for the report, I notified the person responsible for the website about the error.

Are the events in english or in dutch?

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#42

Post by fmw »

jeroen wrote: post #38
fmw wrote: post #34

Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (w…

expect to pay over 50% on income tax alone No. If you earn 50K you pay about 16K in income taxes; if you earn 100K you pay about 43K. (For tax percentages and discounts see http://financieel.infonu.nl/belasting/60892-inkomstenbelasti... . I ignored all special cases.)

Thanks for the clarification. Granted, I oversimplified. The 52% is for everything over ~50K. As a business owner, however, you pay this income tax on top of 20%/25% corporate taxes.

If you make a 100.000 euro profit and extract it from your business the company pays 20% corporate tax (that is the rate below 200.000 euro profit), leaving you with 80,000. That remainder is taxed as follows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_Netherlands. This leaves you with 46.408 euro from your original 100.000 (using the rates that include mandatory pension, social security and State funded medical care payments).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm far from a tax specialist.

Of course, you also have to pay all sorts of other taxes with the remainder, including municipal taxes, a hefty value added tax on most things you buy and property taxes. In return you get the ability to subtract part of your mortgage from your taxes, as well as a government that takes care of you (if you want it or not) when it comes to social security or affordable health care.

Note that there seems to be a tax reduction for certain foreign workers (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_Netherlands#T...). Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Tax_in_the_Netherland... for corporate tax rates.

EDIT: If you sell a company as a resident of the Netherlands you also get taxed quite heavily, but there are ways to mitigate part of that (e.g. using a holding company, so you don't have to pay income tax directly over the money you get for your shares). If you're moving here to start a business, I would suggest consulting a tax advisor or lawyer before you make any decisions or file paperwork.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#44

Post by Caballera »

ianterrell wrote: post #37
DeusExMachina wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sofa contributed, but they are not "the founders" and this is not a "product" at all. Moreover they are moving because they have been acquired, so it has nothing to do with Appsterdam (apart of telling that this city is a fertile ground for good companies). More on the subject on this post: http://mur.mu.rs/?p=156

It was just a metaphor, and while imperfect I think it does express some grain of truth (not all of it, naturally).

I don't think what you said had any sort of truth. Sofa has been purchased by another company, they are moving because they were bought not because they don't believe in Appsterdam.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#45

Post by ElDragonRojo »

fmw wrote: post #34

Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (w…

Your pessimism seems endemic in European culture. It's actually a bigger problem, to my mind, than anything else you've mentioned here. As I like to say, Americans need to calm the hell down, and Europeans need a kick in the ass. Hopefully the Appsterdam movement will help us help each other, and we can find cultural bliss in the middle.

I will say this though, every gay person I know is a lot less worried about being beaten up by a cultural stereotype and a lot more worried about when they are going to be able to get married. That's something Amsterdam has that even San Francisco doesn't.

And hey, if you're right and the government (AKA the people) manage to turn the Netherlands into an intolerant police state, we'll move the whole thing to Germany.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#46

Post by ElDragonRojo »

tomh- wrote: post #36
spif wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The startup scene _is_ growing into a hub actually, although some elements (e.g. capital) are hard, others easier (hiring, advice). That feels like an honor coming from you, thanks. Have you been in Amsterdam often?

How is it growing in a hub exactly? Where do all founders of successful startups hang out? There are some startups out there in Amsterdam, but there are many in other cities too (Utrecht, Delft, Enschede etc.). Amsterdam is definitely not a clear winner as location to found a startup among cities in Holland.

How is it growing as a hub exactly? Did you actually read the article? ;)

Luckily Appsterdam is not limited to Amsterdam. This isn't a pissing match between Dutch cities. It's about international branding. Appschede doesn't sound as good. Most people associate Delft with pottery. Americans have never heard of Utrecht.

As far as most people are concerned, these places are features of Amsterdam. But if you're in the Netherlands, we're a train ride away, and you're always welcome to come up for an event or a meeting.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#47

Post by ElDragonRojo »

Meai wrote: post #3

It would be helpful if the initiators of Appsterdam worked on gathering information relevant for startups. What makes Amsterdam better than Berlin, Vienna... basically any other city. What are the legal conditions in the Netherlands - especially in regard to founding a company and getting accepted as an immigrant, what other companies are already situated there (foremost what their experiences are), and how the livin…

That's good feedback and we will have more of that sort of thing in the future, as well as direct help. A lot of this stuff is on my blog, http://mur.mu.rs.

One clarification though, we're not really in the business of stating we want to be the next anything. We just want to get App Makers together in one place, and we'd prefer that place be nice. What other people label us is their problem.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#48

Post by ElDragonRojo »

fmw wrote: post #42
jeroen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

expect to pay over 50% on income tax alone No. If you earn 50K you pay about 16K in income taxes; if you earn 100K you pay about 43K. (For tax percentages and discounts see http://financieel.infonu.nl/belasting/60892-inkomstenbelasti... . I ignored all special cases.)

Thanks for the clarification. Granted, I oversimplified. The 52% is for everything over ~50K. As a business owner, however, you pay this income tax on top of 20%/25% corporate taxes. If you make a 100.000 euro profit and extract it from your business the company pays 20% corporate tax (that is the rate below 200.000 euro profit), leaving you with 80,000. That remainder is taxed as follows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

Actually the Netherlands has amazing tax incentives for technology companies. It's quite common for tech companies here to pay essentially no payroll taxes. Things like VAT passthrough are also a huge tax break.

You are not a tax expert. I understand that. We actually do have tax experts, who are available to Appsterdammers, and are working on a nice write up of this information for publication in the near future.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#49

Post by ElDragonRojo »

NonEUCitizen wrote: post #40
tomh- wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rent is very high in Amsterdam, and it is really difficult to find good housing in Amsterdam in a decent neighborhood. The rent might be lower than the valley, but don't forget that Dutch salaries can easily be half of what you can get in the valley too.

Rent is high. It's also difficult to find housing because most places use "Makelaars" (rental agents), and they tend to only want to show the apartments during office hours on weekdays.

Appsterdam also has an amazing housing agent who specializes in expats.

I have a ground level apartment with a courtyard on the canal at Groenburgwal, which is in my opinion the nicest neighborhood in Amsterdam, right smack in the middle of everything, but quiet, and beautiful.

Furnished, all inclusive: €1300/mo.

I lived in San Francisco. An apartment this nice in a neighborhood this nice was well out of my price range, and I made six figures at Apple.

Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam

#50

Post by ElDragonRojo »

rdouble wrote: post #22

Amsterdam is neat but the Dutch hackers I know all choose to live in California because of the weather.

Rain doesn't bother me. Smog bothers me. Tasers bother me. Not being able to afford healthcare bothers me. My family has been in California for six generations, and I love it, but you can have it. I'll take the Netherlands.
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