EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#411

Post by voxic11 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

darkwizard42 wrote: post #407

nolok wrote: post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

But is the work of the app store flat fee for an app? I think if you have a massive userbase and drop an update etc. this requires way more of Apple's resources to keep up with, it should probably be a sliding scale right?

Why would the amount of work change depending on the size of the userbase? Isn't it more a function of the complexity and maybe the purpose of the application? Even if it did then the current model makes no sense since they don't charge free apps with huge userbases anything at all!

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#412

Post by whomst » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #330

breakfastduck wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, considering apple have been in the music business longer than App Stores have even existed.

I don't think that can be right. On the surface you're suggesting that if a company worked in a particular area before another company then the first company is entitled to use anti-competitive practices, which clearly isn't true.

I think the main point the (grand?) parent is saying is that "Apple is in the phone business" isn't a reasonable description of Apple. I agree that Apple hosting itself on its own platform is an abuse of market position (especially for something as peripheral as music), but to claim that music/audio isn't a/hasn't been core part of Apple's business model is ridiculous.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#413

Post by LegitShady » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #252

saurik wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We classify a general purpose computing device from the perspective of what a user can do with it: if you can word process AND watch movies AND play games AND read books AND schedule appointments AND message people... well, that's not a "special purpose" device, it is "general purpose". Apple absolutely has made a general purpose computing device, and people buy it with that intent (the lawyer of the special district…

Yes, it’s general with respect to the functionality available - that doesn’t mean you can do anything . Do you disagree? I don't understand how people can be shocked when Apple says their devices do A, B, C and D, but people complain and want government action so the devices do E.

The apple device does A, B, C, D, and E - but it requires you give apple a percentage of your revenue and not let you take money off app or they remove it. It's a general computing device as long as you pay apple's exploitative fees.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#414

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #389

echelon wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is now a monopoly. They shouldn't be allowed to run an App Store, and they should probably have their services division peeled away into a separate company. All of the mega tech monopolies need to be broken up. What business do any of them have being movie studios, advertising firms, car dealerships (Apple?), banks, and fifteen different marketplaces rolled into one? This is absurd. Tech would be better if neit…

I’m not sure you understand what monopoly means. Nobody is mad that Apple/Amazon/Netflix/etc are creating competition for banks, movie studios, car dealers, etc. The complaints about these companies are the specific areas where they hold a dominant position and unfair advantage over other companies. The App Store in the case of Apple/Google, advertising in the case of Google, etc. The areas where these companies have…

The reason you don't want a platform monopoly operating a payment service isn't that they (currently) have a monopoly on payment services. It's that they would leverage the platform monopoly into one, and then there would be less competition in payment services. Prohibiting vertical integration prevents that sort of leveraging without having to micromanage every multinational conglomerate.

The platform company should instead return their profits to the shareholders, some of which will invest them in upstart payment services or movie studios or car dealers. The reason they don't do it this way is that they lose the "advantage" of leveraging the platform monopoly. (There are also perverse tax differences, but that's a different problem.)

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#415

Post by finiteseries » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

agust wrote: post #148

finiteseries wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web ( Chrome ) developers often go on and on about this, but I have yet to hear a single layman user complain about their iOS version of Chrome missing the ability to have the random news websites they’ve followed from Facebook send them native notifications, take up the entire viewport, or be “installed” to their home screen.

Sure. Users don't even know it would be possible, and don't care about the tech anyway. What they care about however is how much they pay for apps, how much they pay for in-app purchases, and being able to switch freely from one platform to another. Well, Apple's behaviour is impacting all this by forcing companies to develop native apps instead of web apps. Web apps (could) work anywhere, and cost a fraction of the…

This is clear, but only replaces the web developer’s perspective with the company’s, not the layman user’s.

In-app purchases and App Store purchases in general are already scraping the bottom of the barrel, we’re talking about the difference between $9.99 & We can imagine the thousands of needlessly native apps with a platform mandated 30% surcharge being transported onto the open web and into user devices free of interference. Hardware accelerated IG like filters writing to local disk in the background at 60fps, DRM protected 4k streaming with cheaper monthly subs, hobbyist forum sites on the home screen with PMs and replies pushing notifications alongside FB, the dream.

But Abuelita is going to experience the millions of individual pages relying exclusively on advertising revenue already twisted and contorted into profitable positions being given the green light for Notifications, Geolocation, Bluetooth, NFC, Network Info, Ambient Light, Idleness, Proximity APIs etc while she’s just trying to read about how Joe Biden is destroying the fabric of America.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#416

Post by echelon » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #389

echelon wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is now a monopoly. They shouldn't be allowed to run an App Store, and they should probably have their services division peeled away into a separate company. All of the mega tech monopolies need to be broken up. What business do any of them have being movie studios, advertising firms, car dealerships (Apple?), banks, and fifteen different marketplaces rolled into one? This is absurd. Tech would be better if neit…

I’m not sure you understand what monopoly means. Nobody is mad that Apple/Amazon/Netflix/etc are creating competition for banks, movie studios, car dealers, etc. The complaints about these companies are the specific areas where they hold a dominant position and unfair advantage over other companies. The App Store in the case of Apple/Google, advertising in the case of Google, etc. The areas where these companies have…

> I’m not sure you understand what monopoly means.

Well, you'd best take that up with the EU and the US Department of Justice, then. You might be a little late.

> Nobody is mad

Half the people in this thread are mad. Companies putting up with app store bullshit and extortion are mad. Furthermore, this will only get worse as the mega monopolies extend their reach into more industries and force people to use their rails for everything, taking their pound of flesh with every interaction. Apple customers aren't even your customers in their model, for Christ's sake. Why do they get the monopoly on that? It's beyond evil and makes it hard to survive, let alone thrive.

Having an iPhone, working for one of these companies, or owning their stock shouldn't cloud your judgment as to what's happening to our industry. Open your eyes and see.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#417

Post by mlok » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #373

mlok wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is wrong and this is precisely why "The Beatles Apple" attacked "Steve Jobs Apple" on the Trademark front. Source : a part of the article you linked to : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps#Apple_Corps_v._A...

I think you missed the joke about first-isms.

If there was a joke I did miss it, that's for sure. And I still do :)

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#418

Post by rstupek » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

benhurmarcel wrote: post #392

simonh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 30% for the first year of subscriptions and 15% thereafter. According to Apple in 2019 Spotify didn't actually pay 30% on any of it's subscriptions at that time, and only paid the 15% on 0.5% of the App's users. The rest are ad supported and Apple gets 0% of the ad revenue. So for every Spotify app user Apple get's a 15% fee for, there are 199 Spotify app users Apple is distributing the App to for which they get…

> only paid the 15% on 0.5% of the App's users. That's the point. This is clearly because they removed the ability to subscribe in the app to avoid paying those 15%. So the rule imposed by Apple is costing them subscribers, all those who would have subscribed if it was available in the app (or even just if they could be informed about how to subscribe). The fact that Spotify has barely no customer who subscribe throu…

Or most of Spotify's users want the free ad supported version?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#419

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #386

echelon wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is now a monopoly. They shouldn't be allowed to run an App Store, and they should probably have their services division peeled away into a separate company. All of the mega tech monopolies need to be broken up. What business do any of them have being movie studios, advertising firms, car dealerships (Apple?), banks, and fifteen different marketplaces rolled into one? This is absurd. Tech would be better if neit…

>They shouldn't be allowed to run an App Store, and they should probably have their services division peeled away into a separate company. I think the ship has sailed on App stores. They're just better than the alternative and consumers are used to them. I'd consider them an integral part of the OS. The problem is the fees. 30% is excessive especially so for in-app purchases where the customer is already acquired. Th…

> I think the ship has sailed on App stores. They're just better than the alternative and consumers are used to them. I'd consider them an integral part of the OS.

If customers really want app stores then prohibit platform companies from operating them and third parties will do it. But they'll compete with each other instead of abusing a monopoly into high fees and prohibitions on apps that compete with the platform's business interests.

Or if app stores fall out of favor as soon as they're not imposed on everyone by platform monopolies then it disproves your theory that most people independently want them.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#420

Post by moffatman » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

codys wrote: post #358

moffatman wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you considered the loss of the 30% from each apple music customer's previous subscription to a competitor. There's no unfair advantage, the maximum profit apple can make by switching a customer away from spotify is spotify's profit.

This assertion ignores that apple makes a profit off the 30% cut. In other words: it doesn't correspond to a real cost to Apple.

It's known that music licensing costs are about 50% of gross subscription prices. So a subscription to spotify is about 50% to rightsholders, 30% to apple, and 20% to spotify as their profit. A subscription to Apple music is 50% to rightsholders, and 50% to apple. The additional profit Apple makes from converting a Spotify customer is only 20% (50%-30%), the same profit that any other competitor to Spotify (such as Tidal) would make on a conversion. Now, Apple could afford to lower their subscription costs to below Spotify's, selling below "cost" at say 75% rate. So they are still "making money" per subscription, but at a price which is unsustainable to Spotify, which seems at first glance unfair and is what I think the comment chain is picturing. But what's happening here is that Apple as a whole is actually making less money on an Apple Music customer (25% margin) than a Spotify customer (30% margin), so it's not profitable or a good business decision versus the alternative. And we don't see apple doing that, at least where I live both subscriptions are the same price. It only works if you are able to drive Spotify out of business, then jack up the prices, but that anticompetitive opportunity to "dump" is possible for Apple in essentially any market due to their vast vast cash reserves.

In my view the potentially anti-trust advantages Apple has over Spotify mainly come from the fact Apple Music is preinstalled and is promoted to iOS users through push notifications.