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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

ethicalsystems.org

701–710 of 734 posts

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. Except you call everyone Nazis or racists including Jews, blacks, and others (J. K. Rowling for a recent example) who would be considered disqualified from white ethno-nationalist movements.

Can you point to an example of anyone calling Just Kidding Rowling a nazi or a racist?

There are thousands of examples on twitter.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#702
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite. It's because the labels themselves have become diluted to have any real meaning. Yes, there are white nationalists who show up to rallies waving Nazi flags. But it's also totally normal to hear people refer to "white supremacy" with regard to SATs[1]. So there really is a diminishing return on calling things racist, and that's probably what most people are "scoffing" at. [1] https://www.tcpress.com/blog/di…

I think you're just illustrating the point. It's okay to address issues with racial bias in SAT questions. Those things can still be racist (maybe not even intentionally so) and worth addressing despite there being worse racism somewhere else. We don't have to ignore that, it's not getting diluted because there are neo nazis that exist somewhere else.

Using loaded terms like "racism" or "white supremacy" to describe major incidents as well as minor "not even intentionally so" infractions is pretty much the definition of dilution.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#703
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Funny that they don't mention what "certain, commonplace views" people "stay silent" about. That might put a different spin on things. The article actually mentions at least two examples, so I don't think there's as much room for spin with this as you might think. One is Conservative voters, who have been vilified by the hard left since the 1970s, not least because of a sense of betrayal with the erosion of parts o…

For what it's worth, the 'shy Tory' effect isn't really a thing, at least in British opinion polling. Maybe in the 1992 General Election, when it was coined, not since. Polling errors go both ways, most polling misses turn out to be a result of turnout modeling problems or (occasionally) unrepresentative samples, and voters have no problem at all telling pollsters they're going to vote for the Tories, UKIP, or anyone…

I gather that it was still an active phenomenon as of the GE in 2015 [0][1], and in 2016 there was a significant underestimation of the Leave vote [2]. I'm not really sure how the last part is supposed to relate to this issue in particular, other than being a general swipe at BoJo.

[0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32751993 [1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/08/election-20... [2] https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/opinions/brex...

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Conservative" isn't a view. It's a movement allegiance. So I don't think that qualifies. I feel the same applies more loosely to Brexit. What's interesting in both case is that both movements absolutely contain rich seams of racism. So if the actual view people are afraid to voice is racism either intent or action, then I would submit that it is in fact good that they are not voicing it. I also strongly doubt that m…

> "Conservative" isn't a view. It's a movement allegiance. So I don't think that qualifies. I feel the same applies more loosely to Brexit. People tended to vote for these things because they believed that the policies of the Conservative Party in the 2019 election or the Leave option in the referendum would be the best expression of their values. They were also rejecting the alternatives, such as a centrally-planned…

Racism didn't "come from, all of a sudden". As history demonstrates, racism is an endemic problem in both places. The question isn't "does it exist" it's "how is it being expressed today".

You really seem to be having trouble getting my point about views, so I'll try again. "Party X should be in charge" is not what I'd call a view. It's generally more a tribal affiliation and a placeholder for a basket of actual opinions on specific policies and issues. If "viewpoint diversity" actually matters in a business context, we need to be specific about which views exact views are vital to business success.

And if you are really having trouble understanding how some of the Brexit-related views might be racist, it seems like you aren't trying very hard there either. I was going to Google it for you, but that rarely turns out to be worth my time. So let's try this: you tell me what you searched on when you failed to find the material and I'll suggest some better searches.

You also seemed to miss with the Southern Strategy bit. Lee Atwater isn't accusing anybody of racism. He was a hugely important figure in the Republican party and was one of the architects of Reagan's 1984 campaign. It wasn't an accusation; he was bragging.

Of course, even with open admissions like this, American conservatives will do the same sort of straining-out-gnats-and-swallowing-camels routine you're doing here. "Racism?!? Surely that stopped existing about the time I was born. How dare you accuse us conservatives of doing what we have been doing all along. Where's your evidence?"

It may work to re-convince the true believers, but it has been some years since I found it persuasive, so if you want to keep this dialog up, I'd suggest some other tack.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, I fear the repercussions of offending others who do not have an open mind." You're dead right and it's damned terrible. I long for both formal and informal debates on many topics but without my opponents becoming annoyed or offended (as so often they do nowadays). These days it seems almost impossible to debate any subject without upsetting someone. I now long for the type of television programs that I reme…

people have been programmed, on a massive scale, to react emotionally to certain learned key phrases and terms. when this automatic emotional reaction occurs, all logical processing ceases immediately, and the person you're talking to either immediately leaves the conversation (if you're lucky) or starts emotionally, verbally attacking you as though your non-conforming line of thought is a pathogen and their overreac…

"people have been programmed, on a massive scale, to react emotionally to certain learned key phrases and terms.'

You're right about that and it scares me, especially so since the advent of the internet as everything is already there and in place to make it much easer to program them on a massive scale. My first experience of the wide scale nature of this phenomenon was in the early 1970s when almost overnight television stations changed from televising mostly game shows and old movies to pushing news full on. As news became the new 'paradigm' for judging ratings it meant that hyping up the news became commonplace—the more sensational news stories became the higher up the ratings went. This continued to escalate to the situation we now have, that is where TV stations regularly interrupt programs with news headlines and news grabs. As these interruptions have to be short, making them sensational and thus more memorable became quite an art form. (Of course, as sleazy tabloids also played out similar themes it became increasingly difficult to escape such practices.)

At the same time, good news reporters and news anchors became thin on the ground (because of stations' new policies, through their dilution in the new news cycle, and the new breed having different ethics to the previous generation). Excellent reporters such as Ed Murrow (and his 'Murrow Boys') and anchors like Walter Cronkite who knew how to balance the news eventually disappeared, so by the time the internet came along that priming to which you refer was ready grow exponentially.

[For those not acquainted to news as it once was (and as a reality check), here are several of Ed Murrow's broadcasts (there are many more on the web and I'd urge you to listen to a sample of them). I apologize in advance if the second one offends or upsets anyone as the subject matter is horrible but I've included it to illustrate how dramatically news reporting has changed over the past 70 or so years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3qpgfH5imA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ffpIHnuaw ]

"people want to be told what to think, not how to think, as it's much easier that way."

Right, that's why those in charge of media organizations have the important responsibility to present news objectively and not sensationally (unfortunately, in the competition for resources the dollar has won out big-time over ethics).

When I was at school, we were taught how to debate, and along with this training, we learned the critical difference between rhetoric and fact and how to tell them apart. From our class the teacher would select two teams at random and they would debate a proposition provided by the teacher. The proposition could be factual, fiction or hearsay, or some theoretical possibility: 'There is no such thing as a black swan' and 'Life exists both on earth and elsewhere in the universe' being two such examples. The teacher then assigned one team to argue in the affirmative and the other in the negative (the teams had no say or choice in which way they had to argue).

At the end of the debate the remainder of the class voted on which team won the debate and that was then followed by an analysis of what had taken place—both the remaining class and debaters had to separate rhetoric from supported fact, figure out subject from predicate, and so on. At later debates, the teacher would allow teams to debate topics that they actually believed or disbelieved but the same analytical process would follow afterwards.

I reckon my early debating experience at high school is the reason why I found my later encounter with the formal debate between Socrates and Thrasymachus at university so interesting, as I quickly realized that the debating techniques that we'd been taught at school were essentially the same as those that Socrates had used against his opponent.

What's very important to realize here is that we don't need university-level logic to teach kids how to develop decent 'bullshit' filtering techniques—techniques that they can then apply throughout life. Moreover, the subject can be made interesting for kids: casting Thrasymachus as a selfish villain who believes 'that justice is everyman for himself' and watching how Socrates not only systematically demolishes that premise but also counters it with the notion that 'justice is much more than just one's self-interest' , as it's not only interesting and can be used to teach kids about logic, rhetoric and false premises but also the narrative has a built-in moral dimension/argument that's essentially universal.

I believe it's of fundamental importance that we provide kids with a solid grounding in these matters early on in their education so they can think logically and reason things out for themselves. Because, as we've seen from horrific events in the 1930s in Germany (and others), great swathes of even intelligent people can succumb to false argument and determined propaganda (and as we now know, good and concerted propaganda is extremely hard to resist).

For the first two decades after WWII, it seems we attempted to get things right (witness the training kids at my school had (and my high school was nothing special, it was stock-standard ordinary and typical of many others)). Unfortunately, in recent decades, and at a time when it's needed more than ever, such training seems to have fallen by the wayside. I'm not sure how we should now tackle the problem either—given that most kids will have experienced and grown used to the internet long before they'll ever get any training in logic, rhetoric, etc. (that is if they ever manage do so at all).

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#706
post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that's a rather charitable interpretation. "Not necessarily good"? Come on, this is the comment we are talking about: > I don't trust this article. The phrase "Losing viewpoint diversity" is of course crafted to make it sound like a chilling trend. Pretty clear what they want you to think about it. But if you drill into what that's referring to, whether you think it's a bad thing is entirely up to what you th…

um, I was the commenter, and I clearly just picked racism as an example of the sort of viewpoint that you would be glad to see less of, to show that viewpoint diversity is not necessarily good depending on the viewpoint. You are really misreading it to make some weird point that no one is buying.

I apologise if I read more into your initial post than was there. However I think the whole discussion thread 100% proves the point that politics should be kept out of the workplace.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#707
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics in English-speaking countries, particularly the US, seems to have partly become entertainment. Some of the "fans" appear more fervent than even the politicians themselves. I'm an outsider and even I've been drawn into US politics, because it is entertaining. Sometimes it's more entertaining than a fictional story. But I doubt that this makes for sensible governing.

Politics is sports for those who think themselves too educated for sports.

Sports teams, exactly. Why would you ever support someone on the other team? It's all about winning, right?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people have been programmed, on a massive scale, to react emotionally to certain learned key phrases and terms. when this automatic emotional reaction occurs, all logical processing ceases immediately, and the person you're talking to either immediately leaves the conversation (if you're lucky) or starts emotionally, verbally attacking you as though your non-conforming line of thought is a pathogen and their overreac…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala_hijack

Yeah, exactly. And my amygdala is over sensitive and I wish I had a gain control fitted to it so that I could turn it down occasionally. (Anyway, at least I know it's prone to over-sensitivity, and that's somewhat helpful. ;-) )

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#709
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the 'shy Tory' effect isn't really a thing, at least in British opinion polling. Maybe in the 1992 General Election, when it was coined, not since. Polling errors go both ways, most polling misses turn out to be a result of turnout modeling problems or (occasionally) unrepresentative samples, and voters have no problem at all telling pollsters they're going to vote for the Tories, UKIP, or anyone…

I gather that it was still an active phenomenon as of the GE in 2015 [0][1], and in 2016 there was a significant underestimation of the Leave vote [2]. I'm not really sure how the last part is supposed to relate to this issue in particular, other than being a general swipe at BoJo. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32751993 [1] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/08/election-20... [2] https://www.c…

There was a fairly large polling miss in 2015, yes - and the traditional in-depth postmortem by the British Polling Council[0]. Nevertheless, the conclusion from the inquiry was that the shy Tory effect "...is unlikely to have been a contributory factor in the polling miss." (p.42). Or from your link 0: "I do not mean to dismiss the "shy Tory" argument out of hand, but I find it far less plausible in 2015 than in 1992".

In short, the polls are normally a bit wrong, and sometimes more than a bit. And occasionally that changes the expected result (as in 2015) rather than just the magnitude of an expected victory. And over the last 30 years or so those misses have on average been larger against the Conservatives than against Labour. But the conclusion, on analysis, is that the misses have generally been caused by structural problems with the polling, not respondents lying because they're shy. This shouldn't surprise us too much: trying to produce a valid poll with less than 100% response rates requires assumptions, and increasingly more heroic ones as the numbers fall and distributions of those still answering change. I'm mildly in awe of my colleagues for getting as close as they do, given how difficult the problems are. And (with the exception of a few partisan hacks) the polling industry and polling academia in Britain is remarkably straightforward about exposing their errors in public and issuing 'mea culpa's where appropriate.

The last part was intended to relate because the notion of a 'shy Tory' is that a voter has deeply-held but perceived socially embarrassing views that they are shy about revealing to a pollster. Persistent dishonesty is disliked, by voters of all parties, and seen to be socially unacceptable - so we would expect social desirability bias to apply to polling for Johnson. But, in fact, voters are happy to rate him as both dishonest and their preferred choice for Prime Minister. Which suggests in a straightforward (though admittedly non-rigorous) way that they're unlikely to be hiding voting for his party.

[0]: http://eprints.ncrm.ac.uk/3789/1/Report_final_revised.pdf

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people have been programmed, on a massive scale, to react emotionally to certain learned key phrases and terms. when this automatic emotional reaction occurs, all logical processing ceases immediately, and the person you're talking to either immediately leaves the conversation (if you're lucky) or starts emotionally, verbally attacking you as though your non-conforming line of thought is a pathogen and their overreac…

Social media did a lot to foster outrage and destroy nuanced thinking. But also decades of materialism and "me me me" culture: I think people learn to follow their desires no-matter-what when buying goods or services and the same emotional mechanism is transferred into "buying in" an idea. Modern advertising and branding is based on emotion and vague ideas. The same algorithms to target online ads have been used to i…

"Modern advertising and branding is based on emotion and vague ideas. The same algorithms to target online ads have been used to influence politics (see cambridge analytica)."

You're right, advertising and branding is, as you say, based on harnessing one's emotions, however an integral part of that process is also involved in converting those initial 'vague ideas'/notions into a solid worldview and it's this newly-developed worldview that causes its recipient/owner to actually believe in or act upon the idea. In essence, this is the basis of all propaganda; and, as we all know, in its most extreme forms it's both pernicious and very dangerous.

Probably the best—and certainly the most infamous—explanation of how one's worldview can be changed by carefully planned propaganda comes from a 1928 speech titled Knowledge and Propaganda. Tragically, this succinct and simple to understand speech comes from one of the most notorious and despicable persons of the 20th Century, and we only have to look to history to see how devastatingly effective the contents of this short message turned out to be: https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goeb54....

Naturally, the advertising industry would want to dissociate itself from this document as much as is absolutely possible but I'd bet many dollars to a brick that many in the advertising industry have read it secretly and understand its message extremely well. Why? Because it has form—when actually implemented its message turned out to be so overwhelmingly effective.

In a free market capitalist economy, advertising is seen and considered as being beneficial, and at one end of the spectrum, it probably is, but as we've seen recently, at the other end it can morph into dangerous propaganda—and, unfortunately, there is no clear demarcation point to separate the two. Given the fact that trillions of dollars are now tied up in advertising, and that serious things have been done in its name (Cambridge Analytica and those other recent assaults on democracy), I reckon it's now time that we stopped pretending that advertising and propaganda are separate entities when clearly they are not.

In my opinion, if we viewed them as both one and the same entity and then set rules accordingly, then we would have some hope of making progress.

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