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EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

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Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#241

Post by saurik »

endisneigh wrote: post #192
m4rtink wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the whole issue - it is a general purpose computing device but Apple is trying to prevent users from using it as such for their selfish reasons. Not only is that anticompetitive, it's also dangerous (state actors can and do apply pressure on them to censor dissenting apps as Apple is the the single gatekeeper) and wasteful (you can't easily repurchase older unsupported devices due to the artificial limits inse…

But it’s not though, that’s just your opinion - is anything with a PCB a general computing device? In any case I’d love if all things with any computing functionality be made completely open. Fridges, TVs, microwaves - etc

We classify a general purpose computing device from the perspective of what a user can do with it: if you can word process AND watch movies AND play games AND read books AND schedule appointments AND message people... well, that's not a "special purpose" device, it is "general purpose". Apple absolutely has made a general purpose computing device, and people buy it with that intent (the lawyer of the special district I am elected to the board of seems to literally have an iPad as his only computer).

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#242

Post by defaultname »

simonh wrote: post #32
zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

It's 30% for the first year of subscriptions and 15% thereafter. According to Apple in 2019 Spotify didn't actually pay 30% on any of it's subscriptions at that time, and only paid the 15% on 0.5% of the App's users. The rest are ad supported and Apple gets 0% of the ad revenue. So for every Spotify app user Apple get's a 15% fee for, there are 199 Spotify app users Apple is distributing the App to for which they get…

"The rest are ad supported and Apple gets 0% of the ad revenue."

The vast bulk of the rest likely signed up elsewhere and aren't free users. I signed up online, as I imagine most people do for most services. I'm not sure if Spotify even had an app subscription at the time, though even if it did I wouldn't have used it.

I signed up for Netflix, Skillshare, Prime, Disney+, etc, all on their own sites. Even my Microsoft Office apps I bought a multi-year subscription on some site (saving something like 40% over the app fees). There is zero value for me subscribing to things like that through Apple. Actually negative value.

If it's some single-platform little app that needs a subscription to use the beautifier filter or something, sure, provide that "value".

"there are 199 Spotify app users Apple is distributing the App to for which they get nothing"

They have gotten hundreds of billions in purchases from consumers, all but the very first purchases predicated on a robust and healthy app ecosystem. Apple runs the app store for me, the guy who buys their devices. They are certainly getting loads for it.

It is perverse that Apple bars notifying users that they can subscribe elsewhere, and eventually that is going to be regulatory eliminated.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#243

Post by realusername »

slver wrote: post #232
realusername wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one (successfully) sued Apple for anti-competitive practices on iPod Because they never had the market share and power in the music market that they have now on the mobile market that's why. You kind of answered why they are getting sued now yourself.

You're in effect saying "no, EU didn't sue iPhone because it added an App Store to iPhone, it sued iPhone because it was successful". Is that better? Become successful, get sued? Android has 87% market share, iOS has 13%. That's not even a monopoly. Of course we can define arbitrary categories like "Apple has monopoly on the iOS market". Which makes the concept of monopoly absolutely nonsensical, because then everyon…

What a moot argument, there's absolutely zero competition in the mobile market. The living proof of that is that the only tariff changes Apple ever made in their whole mobile history was because ... of a real threat of an anti-trust lawsuit. They basically admitting the fact themselves, you can't even make this up.

Yes it's a duopoly and yes they are both abusing their market power. It got so bad that you have to get testimonials of mobile developers anonymously against those two companies because they are fearing retaliation against them (yes that does sound like a mafia).

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#244

Post by swiley »

cletus wrote: post #145

So Apple's ecosystem does two things: 1. it gatekeeps what's in the App Store. This is of course controversial but is a net positive for consumers (IMHO); and 2. It provides a convenient payments infrastructure. I certainly hope no government forces Apple to allow third-party App stores. Just look at what a mess this is on the PC where there are a million launchers (eg Steam, Epic, Ubisoft, Rockstar) and nearly all o…

I'm tired of writing it but Apple's App Store does not prevent malware and scams.

See my earlier comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26966785

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#245

Post by La1n »

jamesrr39 wrote: post #124
simion314 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is not all of HN, and people from outside US are not that anti-regulation, anti-socialism like US citizens. But this is EU rule, so if you are from US it won't apply to you anyway.

maybe, who knows. GDPR for example got more companies making "download my data" options, even for users outside the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#246

Post by d1sxeyes »

simonh wrote: post #167
ericmay wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the topic has been beat to death a million times, the danger is that adding additional app stores will result in decreases in the exact thing the OP likes the App Store for. All of the hard work fighting for privacy, security, etc., goes out the window. Facebook will put their app on a 3rd party store and now we’re back to them and others abusing privacy and tracking users and not sharing what and how they’re trac…

Exactly, I like the fact that if Facebook want to be on my phone they have to meet Apple's security and privacy standards. That directly benefits me, and it's one of the reasons I buy iPhones. Forcing Apple to change their product to allow side loading and alternative stores takes that away from me.

The question really is do you think that it's fair to expect app developers to meet the criteria and then pay the Apple tax?

To be clear, I'm not decided on my opinion yet, I can see merits on both sides of the argument.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#247

Post by simion314 »

endisneigh wrote: post #120
ahiknsr wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. "Apple blocked Facebook from informing users that Apple would collect 30 percent of in-app purchases made through a planned new feature, Facebook tells Reuters. Apple said the update violated an App Store rule that doesn’t let developers show “irrelevant” information to users" https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/28/21405140/apple-rejects-fa...

That’s a related, but separate issue. My point is that app developers know about the fees. Apple doesn’t hide them. The issue you’re describing is more of whether Apple should allow App Store developers display messages to the end user of their apps saying that Apple is skimming off the top. Similar to how it would be if Apple said Visa will take 2% or whatever.

That makes sense for Apple but not for the Apple users, users pay more so users lose and Apple wins, this shit does not fly in other countries.

For example for currency exchanges we had laws(in Romania) that you have to print in giant fonts all the fees/taxes. The law was created because the giant text was showing some values and the fees were hidden or printed in small fonts somewhere unreadable.

IMO aa country could force Apple to print on their iPHone boxes something like (30% of your subscriptions or Farmwill gems go to Apple, buyer be aware that you can probably buy the subscriptions cheaper on the developer website but Apple won't allow them to show you the link because they are greedy)

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#248

Post by endisneigh »

isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #228
endisneigh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not really the analogous situation. More like Samsung takes a 30% cut on apps on its Tizen platform. Surely you’d just change TVs no? Or not buy it to begin with?

If only Samsung and Sony were making these TVs, and they both had these platforms, I'm screwed anyway, am I not?

How are you screwed, exactly? You can still watch tv, no?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#249

Post by jVinc »

zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

> Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!!

This seems to be the case for all markets. I don't really see myself winning a case against wallmart if I complain they want a markup on sales of my product and that they are misusing their "monopoly" on "wallmart shelf space" by not allowing me decide to put my products in their store without their say, or without letting them earn money on the transactions that happen through their store.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#250

Post by Sakos »

breakfastduck wrote: post #215
gambiting wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's irrelevant. EU has already ruled previously that if you, as a company, reach more than 10% of EU's population(about 30M people) then no, you can no longer get away with just saying "my platform, my rules". The easiest way to think about it is - John wants to sell Mark a product that works on Mark's iphone. Currently, John cannot do that without a) getting explicit permission from Apple b) giving Apple a substa…

Apple holds a gigantic market in their grasp and by controlling it so tightly and by forcing everyone to use their billing, they give the customers what they want . If iOS becomes the android wild west it'll kill the entire selling point of the iPhone. To me, the iPhone is the equivalent of buying a games console instead of a gaming PC. Less flexibility, less to worry about. 'Its just a phone'.

> Apple holds a gigantic market in their grasp and by controlling it so tightly and by forcing everyone to use their billing, they give the customers what they want.

Sorry, this is irrelevant. If people want a monopoly, that doesn't change the effects of that monopoly existing.

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