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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#691

Post by alchemst »

Loughla wrote: post #527
giantg2 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Therefore, career choice, and the pay outcomes, are not truly based on merit or ability, and can be controlled by unfair external factors. Further, what this means is that the playing field is not level. Some people will have advantages, just because of how they were born - which is the issue we started with." I could be a doctor, or a lawyer, or some other high paying powerful job, but I chose not to. Does that hav…

I think we have a miscommunication and an issue with a lack of common definitions between the two of us. >The idea that the pay is based on someone's innate abilities or merits is insane Merit is not innate ability. Merit is just ability - not natural ability. This is a combination of skill, willingness to learn, hard work, grit, access to resources, and (yes some innate factors such as disability status) other facto…

It doesn't really -- I don't think any business say "well, I'm paying for surgeons rather than pediatricians, which have more men, so I'll pay more." This would ignore obstetricians (more women) getting paid more than internal medicine (mostly men). Jobs tend to pay what the market works out is the lowest amount people will take the role for. This is the basic principle of supply and demand.

Men tend to go to the jobs that pay more, the jobs don't pay more because men go to them. Not seeing this seems to be a massive willful ignoring of economics.

Men tend to work longer hours. They negotiate more at hiring, as they are willing to take the chance that the request for more money fails and apply somewhere else.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#692

Post by baobabKoodaa »

ajkjk wrote: post #657
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that's a rather charitable interpretation. "Not necessarily good"? Come on, this is the comment we are talking about: > I don't trust this article. The phrase "Losing viewpoint diversity" is of course crafted to make it sound like a chilling trend. Pretty clear what they want you to think about it. But if you drill into what that's referring to, whether you think it's a bad thing is entirely up to what you th…

um, I was the commenter, and I clearly just picked racism as an example of the sort of viewpoint that you would be glad to see less of, to show that viewpoint diversity is not necessarily good depending on the viewpoint. You are really misreading it to make some weird point that no one is buying.

> um, I was the commenter, and I clearly just picked racism as an example of the sort of viewpoint that you would be glad to see less of to show that viewpoint diversity is not necessarily good depending on the viewpoint. You are really misreading it to make some weird point that no one is buying.

Ok. Let's see if I understood your point correctly this time: you are saying that sometimes viewpoint diversity is good, and sometimes viewpoint diversity is bad. For example, viewpoint diversity is bad in the subject of racism, but viewpoint diversity might be good in some other subject. Overall, you expressed a sentiment that you are not worried about "decreasing viewpoint diversity". Would you agree with this characterization?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#693

Post by alchemst »

hilbert42 wrote: post #314
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

"However, I fear the repercussions of offending others who do not have an open mind." You're dead right and it's damned terrible. I long for both formal and informal debates on many topics but without my opponents becoming annoyed or offended (as so often they do nowadays). These days it seems almost impossible to debate any subject without upsetting someone. I now long for the type of television programs that I reme…

Oh come on, Thrasymachus is the OG strawman. All he does is go around saying how smart Socrates is, and how wrong he himself is.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#694

Post by read_if_gay_ »

oblio wrote: post #687
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t even have to be shouting slurs. Donating to the wrong cause is enough.

It depends. If the "wrong cause" is one advocating for fewer rights for fellow humans, most reasonable humans feel hard to sympathize with the person complaining about it.

That's true but finding it hard to sympathize with someone is different from taking matters into your own hands and getting people fired.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#695

Post by alchemst »

edenhyacinth wrote: post #577
someguydave wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“fixing” that “problem” would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest. How do you propose to force them to change their desires?

That argument assumes women aren't interested in those roles, and that their disinterest is the only or primary thing that causes an imbalance. You have to know that isn't true, which makes this a great example of why people are frustrated about discussing anything 'political' in the workplace.

Why on earth would you say "you have to know this isn't true"?

If you see similar patterns across many different cultures, including ones considered to be more gender-egalitarian, I would have honestly thought the conclusion would be, in fact, varying interests.

Or do you think there are no biological differences (on average) between men and women, in which case, I can provide you with large, multi-national studies that come to a different conclusion.

I can see how there could be debate about how much the difference is, and what the causes of it are, but "you have to know that isn't true" seems like saying "Come on, everyone knows the world is flat, stop arguing in bad faith".

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#696

Post by alchemst »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #481
nostromo wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it points to a theory that societal norms serve to re-enforce the expectation of taking jobs in lower paying fields on women versus men. That’s one theory. Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions.

But then why do those careers earn less money? Why is it that it just so happens that every job that is more likely for women to work also is paid less?

That's not true. Obstetricians are mostly women and are better paid (on average) than internal medicine, which is mostly men. There are other examples.

If you assume men are willing to give up more (life span, time, stress, risk) for money than women, it has an amazing amount of explanatory power.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#697

Post by alchemst »

rovolo wrote: post #632
giantg2 wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe all the ones you listed would fall above the median salary of about $50k.

My point wasn't that all the specified careers were above the median salary, my point was that the most dangerous jobs don't seem to be the best paid jobs. The original question was > But then why do those careers earn less money? and the follow up was > If, by being a man, you are 10x more likely to die from your job, and you are 10x more likely to die younger, should society compensate for your fewer hours lived? w…

You need to compare jobs you can get with same qualifications, of course. That's why we don't compare surgeons with janitors.

Of course, most gender pay gap comparison do in fact compare surgeons with kindergarten teachers, but that seems done intentionally to mislead.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#698

Post by [deleted] »

tolbish wrote: post #560
krageon wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you want to keep your job then you don't question your employers' politics. If you're annoying to your manager (or their manager, etc), they will fabricate reasons to fire you. It might take a while (in countries with employee protection), but they'll get there.

That sounds like a dreadful work environment you've got there. Some workplaces encourage communication with management, provided it's done respectfully.

[deleted]

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#699

Post by Draken93 »

concordDance wrote: post #688
Draken93 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is definitely considered "a progressive activist" I may add my 2cents: I am not quite sure what you mean with objections? If you mean that people are not willing to talk about those things: I accept it, and stop talking about it. (Aslong as it is no direct issue like those people using the N-word, or being racist in general.) About disagreement: It would be pretty strange if everyone would have the sam…

> If someone considers people inferior only because of their gender, their race or their religion? Would something like the Danmore memo[1] count? [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586-Googles-Ideo...

Due to an high amount of work I have to do I was only able to skim through the memo.

It seams as if the memo was written in a good intention. What I took away from the text is that he mostly considers people different, not inferior, because of their gender. It would be dumb to completly disagree with that. I think rational and follow science, therefore I agree on some off his points. I disagree with the extend of his conclusions and imo he sometimes mixes up correlation and causality.

But those are all things one could discuss. He sounds like reasonable guy.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#700

Post by [deleted] »

concordDance wrote: post #688
Draken93 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is definitely considered "a progressive activist" I may add my 2cents: I am not quite sure what you mean with objections? If you mean that people are not willing to talk about those things: I accept it, and stop talking about it. (Aslong as it is no direct issue like those people using the N-word, or being racist in general.) About disagreement: It would be pretty strange if everyone would have the sam…

> If someone considers people inferior only because of their gender, their race or their religion? Would something like the Danmore memo[1] count? [1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586-Googles-Ideo...

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