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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

ethicalsystems.org

681–690 of 734 posts

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#681
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the only people who are against interracial marriage are straight-ticket crazy people, and this sorting of society is superficially "polarization" I'm not sure which metric of polarization is typically used in studies, but the situation you describe (vast majority agreeing, with a tiny minority in an extreme position) intuitively sounds like approaching consensus. Intuitively, with some survey measure of 0 to 1…

> " Intuitively, with some survey measure of 0 to 10, maximum polarization would be 50% of respondents responding 0 and 50% of respondents responding 10. Minimum polarization would be 100% of respondents giving the same answer (regardless of what that answer is). " A world where 50% of people live at the North Pole, 50% at the South Pole and nobody at the equator, is polarized. So is a world where 90% of people live…

> A world where 50% of people live at the North Pole, 50% at the South Pole and nobody at the equator, is polarized. So is a world where 90% of people live at the North Pole, 10% at the South Pole and nobody at the equator.

First, in order to make sense, it should be "would like to live" not "live", with some context that a new city needs to be built, or something. Polarization is about opinions and attitudes.

Secondly, a world where 90% of people would like everyone to live at the North Pole and 10% would like everyone to live at the South Pole is less polarized. Society is able to make a compromise that is acceptable to more people.

If 8 billion people think soap tastes terrible, 1 person thinks soap tastes delicious, and nobody thinks soap tastes meh, we've reached consensus as a society. There will always be some issues where there is a strong consensus at one extreme or another, but that doesn't hamper society's ability to agree on decisions.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#682
post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your tweet, you immediately go to "well off white guys". The fact that you feel comfortable and proud to write like this in public, under your real name, perfectly encapsulates how far off the reservation you are.

I am a well-off white guy. Please explain why you think I can't talk openly about a group I'm in, one that was favored by law and custom starting right at the beginning of my country.

You know who else is a well-off white guy who knows what's best for others?

https://streamable.com/1v4dmm

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Funny that they don't mention what "certain, commonplace views" people "stay silent" about. That might put a different spin on things. The article actually mentions at least two examples, so I don't think there's as much room for spin with this as you might think. One is Conservative voters, who have been vilified by the hard left since the 1970s, not least because of a sense of betrayal with the erosion of parts o…

"Conservative" isn't a view. It's a movement allegiance. So I don't think that qualifies. I feel the same applies more loosely to Brexit. What's interesting in both case is that both movements absolutely contain rich seams of racism. So if the actual view people are afraid to voice is racism either intent or action, then I would submit that it is in fact good that they are not voicing it. I also strongly doubt that m…

> "Conservative" isn't a view. It's a movement allegiance. So I don't think that qualifies. I feel the same applies more loosely to Brexit.

People tended to vote for these things because they believed that the policies of the Conservative Party in the 2019 election or the Leave option in the referendum would be the best expression of their values. They were also rejecting the alternatives, such as a centrally-planned economic model including wealth taxes and the nationalisation of companies and utilities or European federalism and supranationalism, because these policies opposed their views. And they were certainly criticized for this decision with the reasoning being that it was the result of them having the wrong sort of views.

> What's interesting in both case is that both movements absolutely contain rich seams of racism.

Where did racism come from, all of a sudden? That's a very broad smear, and I'd challenge you to provide evidence.

> So if the actual view people are afraid to voice is racism either intent or action, then I would submit that it is in fact good that they are not voicing it.

Again, I'm not sure why specifically you're bringing racism into Brexit or the 2019 GE, but you're welcome to substantiate that.

> I also strongly doubt that many are afraid to voice a view that the correct tax rate for high income earners are 3 points higher or lower.

In many parts of the UK, in various professions and walks of life it's just not worth the hassle of letting it be known that you vote Conservative or that you voted Leave. The unions all support Labour, and there is no point in particular in making your life harder by exposing your political alignment if you're working in a blue-collar role in the public sector.

> But what decades of history teaches is that since overt racism is no longer acceptable, quite a lot of other issues are used as covers for racism. See Lee Atwater's quote here, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy#Evolution_(1...

It's hard to tell how much personal bias is involved when allegations of dog-whistling are made, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with Reagan to be able to make an assessment in this case.

> So I stand by my view that we must look at the specific opinions people are scared to voice and see to what extent they relate to oppressing groups who were previously forced to keep quiet. My bet here is that a lot of what "Conservative voters" happen to be afraid to speak about is the conservation parts of the past that they are rightly ashamed to be honest about wanting to keep.

I've already given you two particular examples of opinions that people have been unwilling to broadcast; one is that the UK should have a Conservative government (and not a Labour government under Jeremy Corbyn/John McDonnell) in the 2019 election, and the other is that the UK should leave the EU, and people have been subject to criticism for holding either of those views. The inference in this case that an unwillingness to broadcast the basis or the practical conclusions of one's political ideology would likely be due to a person harboring shameful and unconscionable opinions basically amounts to a form of victim-blaming, and it appears to be ideological rather than based in evidence. I'd encourage you to continue to look into this, if you're interested, because you might end up being surprised.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#684
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "criminal-on-criminal" crimes may not make the news, but they end up being used to push for stricter gun control laws.If I remember correctly, the majority of gun violence and mass shootings is done with hand guns, is gang related, and mostly contained to some very violent areas in cities. Politicians and the media try to make it seem like the shootings are all done by right-wing radicals killing kids with AR-15s…

Yeah, I surprise my fellow Europeans by explaining that homicides (by gun or other means) are extremely unevenly distributed in the U.S. and that, depending on where you live, your safety may be on the level of Reykjavík (basically a peace heaven) or Johannesburg (living hell), with local gun ownership rates having only a very loose correlation to crime, if any.

For gun murder, it could actually be a small negative correlation.

https://hwfo.substack.com/p/everybodys-lying-about-the-link-...

Statistics, of course, are often made to include all gun deaths, and it would also be interesting to see whether the overall rate of of suicide is affected by levels of gun ownership.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#685

Something has changed in the last year or two. Basically it is impossible to talk with someone about anything other than weather and the tasks in the pipeline. Everyone is afraid of being cancelled. Even if you tell something politically correct today, you don't know if this will be cancellable in 10 years and then a co-worker who doesn't like you will make a tweet about what you said. Something has gone terribly wro…

One can only hope for the situation to overheat completely for and the lynchmobs to eat one another that the pendulum swings the other way.

Hopefully this "wokeness" in our culture can be corrected peacefully and sensibly, as opposed to having a massive overreaction that may itself have an overreaction

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#686

Progressivism is the new Christianity, taking over the pagan landscape. It used to be that politics (in the UK) was class based. You are this or that based on your background. Two people from different classes would understand why the other did not support the same political party. That was how it was, and nobody felt the other should not exist. Everyone felt the other had a place in society. These progressive ideolo…

It's important to draw the similarities between attempting to have dialogues with Christians/Progressives, in that they both argue their position exclusively from an emotional standpoint, never from an objective one.

For example, say you suggested "God does not exist" to a Christian. More often than not you'll receive an emotional response: "You're going to hell, is that what you want?!", "So life is meaningless to you?", "I feel sorry for you", etc.

Say you suggested to a "Progressive Activist", something as objective as "You should defend the right to display the Confederate flag (while condemning the action itself)". Progressive Activists become irrevocably distracted by the emotional injustice that the Confederate flag represents to them. Responses often include: "No, those people are pieces of shit, fuck them", "Racists", "They're what's wrong with this country", etc.

The emotional disposition of Christians and "Progressive Activists" are nearly identical.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? If I go to the town square and yell at crowds about how one race is superior to the others, I should expect some repercussions. Why is it different, now, just because it involves computers?

You don’t even have to be shouting slurs. Donating to the wrong cause is enough.

It depends. If the "wrong cause" is one advocating for fewer rights for fellow humans, most reasonable humans feel hard to sympathize with the person complaining about it.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is very much not one of the 13%, I'm curious: how would you react to objections and disagreement on those issues?

As someone who is definitely considered "a progressive activist" I may add my 2cents: I am not quite sure what you mean with objections? If you mean that people are not willing to talk about those things: I accept it, and stop talking about it. (Aslong as it is no direct issue like those people using the N-word, or being racist in general.) About disagreement: It would be pretty strange if everyone would have the sam…

> If someone considers people inferior only because of their gender, their race or their religion?

Would something like the Danmore memo[1] count?

[1] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586-Googles-Ideo...

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#689
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overton window has shifted to the left on many issues. E.g. trans rights In my own workplace the overton window shifted notably left in gender issues in the last decade. You make a good point about hn people not being representative though.

>The overton window has shifted to the left on many issues. E.g. trans rights > >In my own workplace the overton window shifted notably left in gender issues in the last decade. These are not shifts to the left, they are a shifts towards liberalism . The left still has a big problem with gender identity. Take a look at Rosie Duffield and Jess Phillips in the Labour Party, Joanne Cherry in the SNP, and the issues surr…

I'm not sure how requiring other people to use particular pronouns they might disagree are appropriate can be termed "liberalism".

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that's a rather charitable interpretation. "Not necessarily good"? Come on, this is the comment we are talking about: > I don't trust this article. The phrase "Losing viewpoint diversity" is of course crafted to make it sound like a chilling trend. Pretty clear what they want you to think about it. But if you drill into what that's referring to, whether you think it's a bad thing is entirely up to what you th…

> that's a rather charitable interpretation Welcome to HN, this is how we do things here: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. From the guidelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). I’ll also note that anytime I see the phrase “come on” in debate I perceived that the person that said it has l…

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

> I’ll also note that anytime I see the phrase “come on” in debate I perceived that the person that said it has lost, knows they lost (usually subconsciously) and are literally begging for leeway

Oh, the irony. After you scold me on the need to assume "the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says", you immediately proceed to interpret my comment as "literally begging for leeway". I guess my comment was not deserving of "strongest plausible interpretation", or even interpreting it at face value? No, you'll go as far as psychoanalyzing my subconscious where I "know I lost". Wow.

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