Live data from Hacker News

New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

ethicalsystems.org

151–160 of 734 posts

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#151
post #147
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought? To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink. There is perhaps a separate discussion to be had about the…

Limiting it to legal consequences is not enough. There are also physical and psychological safety consequences that are relevant. You're not, for example, free to speak your mind if expressing wrongthink will result in a punch to the face.

In the context of a workplace (being the topic of this post, after all), one such consequence is the loss of your job. Something that is very real these days, with so-called activists doxing people and trying to get them fired just because they dared to express a dissenting opinion.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#152
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I support your right to say it doesn't mean I have to celebrate what you say, or why you said it.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

No, the expectation of being able to say anything and not be responsible for it, is what's wrong.

Say what you want, but be prepared to stand by it and take responsibility for it, in a court of law if necessary.

Free speech is a right, and thus it requires the person exercising that right to understand that it does not absolve them from being held responsible for what they say or express.

Just like the 2nd amendment doesn't shield you from all possible consequences of exercising that right to bear arms.

Rights are not "get out of jail free" cards.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#153
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the case if the majority of people hold progressive views. I've encountered enough conservative companies where people had no problem sharing openly conservative views (some to an extreme that led to open racism). In those companies, no one would've dared voicing progressive views. Doing that was the easiest way to become an outsider.

I think racism is orthogonal to political affiliation. The (thankfully few) most virulently racist people I know, i.e. white people who drop the "N" word in casual conversation, are straight-ticket "D" voters. I also know people who are fiscally and socially conservative but not racist in the slightest.

[deleted]

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#154
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with, shall we say, radically progressive views, are more than comfortable to share them openly in the staff rooms, kitchens, before and after meetings, etc. without anybody contending with them. Anybody with more centrist, or God forbid conservative views, saves them for the pub afterwards or for their private gatherings. The Overton window seems to shift weekly.

That's the case if the majority of people hold progressive views. I've encountered enough conservative companies where people had no problem sharing openly conservative views (some to an extreme that led to open racism). In those companies, no one would've dared voicing progressive views. Doing that was the easiest way to become an outsider.

I mean at work you have literally nothing to gain by being honest about your views (it's not a polling booth) and could curry favour by professing the same views as those around you.

Therefore, it's not surprising that this tends towards groupthink that agrees with the Highest Paid Person's Opinion whether that should be on the left or on the right.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the paradoxical struggle I've had, from day one, at the startup for which I work. I was praised for being "fresh eyes" and having "creative ideas", only to be reminded "how we do things here" after producing something that I thought would be a progressive way of addressing the company's challenges. I continue to try new directions, and every once in a while something sticks, but often times I just have to be…

This is normal. If you are an IC or middle manager you are there to execute (do what your boss says). Defining process and culture is not your job. Whether your process is better or not is besides the point. Fighting this will only lead to political pain.

Would you say it is also your job to not question things like diversity initiatives?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#156

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> how willingly other people bring up politically sensitive issues in the workplace

I'd say I'm a mix of conservative/Libertarian and this kind of blows my mind over the past few years. It seems like I constantly hear people on the left openly voicing their political opinions around crowds of people, and always speak in a way that they genuinely believe everyone around them agrees....and often have a condescending way of saying it. It amazes me how they seem to have absolutely no idea where the right-wing people are even coming from. I think this recent over-confidence is mostly due to them not realizing the major media outlets are essentially feeding them communist propaganda (if you don't agree with this I'd consider researching cognitive dissonance). I experience this on a regular basis, and it usually leads to me completely losing respect for that person purely due to the lack of awareness that person is showing.

The other dynamic, and what the leftists don't realize (or can't process), is that the left's arguments are primarily things that sound good in practice, but don't add up in theory. It always sounds good when someone says they want to help someone else, no matter who says it. This allows them to go crazy in public giving one liners about the surface level of their political policies ("everyone should have world class health care!", "everyone should have lots of money!", "No one should ever shoot someone else with a gun!"...all because they sound good (even to conservatives). Conservative policies take a bit more explaining to get their point across, and are much more focused on the logical and realistic side of things. No one likes to say "someone who doesn't work and doesn't contribute to society doesn't deserve govt handouts"...but it makes logical sense. That kind of talk doesn't exactly sound as good around the water cooler. Also, the time horizon for conservative viewpoints is often much longer (think about generations in the future and the impact today's decisions will have down the road). Compared to the left's policies that solve shallow issues today while mortgaging the well-being of future generations.

The simple fact is that conservatives have an easier time seeing where the left is coming from as a result of the left's primary policies being shallower and less thought out. These aspects also make it easier for the left to create snarky comments around. Conservatives however, simply don't agree and think it's all a pipe dream. They see the shallowness that the left is not able to. The left on the other hand, not only doesn't understand the right's overarching viewpoints...they also aren't even willing to try to understand where the right is coming from.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#157
Progressivism is the new Christianity, taking over the pagan landscape. It used to be that politics (in the UK) was class based. You are this or that based on your background. Two people from different classes would understand why the other did not support the same political party. That was how it was, and nobody felt the other should not exist. Everyone felt the other had a place in society. These progressive ideologies are different. Everyone can be part of them. You can be a pauper progressive and also a billionaire progressive. Secondly if you are not one of them, you are the enemy, and you do not belong in society, and the aim is to eradicate you. This is what changed. No conservative in the 1970s would have thought, everyone in Britain should be a conservative. That would not make sense. They would not have felt that was something reasonable to demand, or even at all possible. But now you got progressives who think that is indeed what should happen. Everyone should be progressive. If you are not you need to be exterminated. And paradoxically, they want to include everyone in their ranks, but they also stand for very little. When you have all kinds, within your ranks you cannot accomplish much of substance without upsetting your own comrades.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#158
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

No, the expectation of being able to say anything and not be responsible for it, is what's wrong. Say what you want, but be prepared to stand by it and take responsibility for it, in a court of law if necessary. Free speech is a right, and thus it requires the person exercising that right to understand that it does not absolve them from being held responsible for what they say or express. Just like the 2nd amendment…

I'm not really sure what the amendments to the US constitution have to do with a post about British workplaces, but I think you have a very different view on "freedom of speech" than the classically liberal one that it is arguably founded upon. That's OK, of course.

In the UK we don't have and have never had freedom of speech. In fact, we have some of the harshest libel laws in the world. There are very many consequences for saying or publishing things that you're not allowed to here.

But this post is about people self-censoring their opinions, particularly in the workplace, for fear of repercussions, and that is something that absolutely is getting worse. Like many others I steer clear of all of these topics myself, as even though I hold "approved" opinions on them. I fear that someone may wilfully misinterpret something I say and cause me irreparable harm by going on some weird crusade to have me fired and my life ruined, as that seems to be what normally happens these days.

If one has fear then one is not free.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#159
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "the new segregationists" and "genderisation of everything"? Are people stomping in and replacing gender-neutral workplace restrooms with separate ones for specific genders? Is racial (or otherwise) segregation being put in place at your place of work? Are gender-neutral pronouns like "they" being replaced in company prose with "he" or "she"?

I assume that the previous poster sees “new segregationism” in the following behaviours: * The de-nuancing of race by reverting to “white” vs “black” and sidelining all other “races”. * The redefinition of racism to be exclusively something that “white” people do to “black” people. * The rollback of cultural integration goals by ringfencing certain behaviours as either “black” or “white”, with any cross-pollination b…

This is a very detailed and informative reply, thanks. I don't know how I could arrived at it just based on the terms they used to describe it.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#160
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I support your right to say it doesn't mean I have to celebrate what you say, or why you said it.

From the article: > We asked whether it is “fair or unfair for people who say grossly offensive things to be at risk of losing their livelihoods?” Nationally, 48 percent believe it is “fair,” but this figure rises to 65 percent for social democrat-aligned Labour voters, compared with 39 percent for right-leaning Conservative voters. Meaning right leaning are more likely to live and let live.

"right leaning" is a minority in the UK, and if you exclude those who've retired it's a small minority. Minorities tend to be more accepting of speech that goes against the majority view.
Post reply on HN