Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election' • Hacker News Board

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#131

Post by bongobingo » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #97

ceejayoz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in upstate New York, my insurer's Bronze plans run about $1100/month for a family ( https://myportal.dfs.ny.gov/documents/538523/9578747/Excellu... ). That gets you a $10k family deductible, and a $13,100 max out-of-pocket. https://www.nyhealthinsurer.com/insurance/pdfs/plans/1319 I pay $2,200 a month for a family Platinum plan, in order to get $0 deductible and $4k/year max OOP. The true cost of healthcare is m…

For comparison, UK NHS budget is ~$4500 per year per capita. No deductables. About ~10% have private insurance in addition to e.g. avoid queues etc. for non-critical care since NHS triages by clinical need. Typical price for private cover is usually ~$50-$200/month per person. The true scam on the American public is that the way your healthcare is regulated means US taxpayers pay about the same UK taxpayers do toward…

It’s more complicated than what you’re saying. The health care industry in the US is almost 15% of the GDP and employs about 10% of the workers. It is difficult to quickly fix this system without catastrophic economic consequences. Unfortunately, our political leaders are unable or unwilling to plan more than 2-4 years out.

To fix this system we would need a 10-15 year transition period, and it’s virtually impossible to make that happen. No single President could oversee the process from beginning to end, and Congress could change party control 6-8 times.

The reason we haven’t fixed this problem isn’t because we love corporations, but because no single political party is willing to commit suicide.

The Democrats talk a big game, but it’s pretty much all talk. Bernie Sanders home state of Vermont tried to implement a single payer system, and failed spectacularly. Vermont is a tiny state. Imagine the disaster it will be trying to pull the rug out from under the healthcare economy for the entire United States.

https://www.vox.com/2014/12/22/7427117/single-payer-vermont-...

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#132

Post by mikepurvis » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #112

offtop5 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rent's still due Monday. Hypothetically let's say Amazon is found to be at fault, even if action is taken your still out of work. I consider myself fairly educated, and I still have no idea what remedies exist if Amazon was to close a warehouse due to unionization. For working class people who are more concerned about paying their bills, voting for a union sounds like a very risky proposition. There's a very good cha…

This sounds like fear mongering. How often do union votes result in closures?

One prominent example from recent memory:

"On November 2, 2017, Ricketts posted to both DNAinfo and the '-ist' network sites that both websites would immediately cease operations, a week after Gothamist writers voted to unionize with the Writers Guild of America, East. All content from all DNAinfo sites and all subsidiary sites were taken down. The next day, archives of the sites were returned to functionality. Ricketts's shutdown was criticized as being a mere act of retaliation after the two companies' workers had joined a union."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothamist#Shutdown

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#133

Post by smegger001 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #112

offtop5 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rent's still due Monday. Hypothetically let's say Amazon is found to be at fault, even if action is taken your still out of work. I consider myself fairly educated, and I still have no idea what remedies exist if Amazon was to close a warehouse due to unionization. For working class people who are more concerned about paying their bills, voting for a union sounds like a very risky proposition. There's a very good cha…

This sounds like fear mongering. How often do union votes result in closures?

anytime a walmart store votes to unionize. its usually stated to close due to some other preexisting reason. but there is a direct correlation between union vote and stores being shut down

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#134

Post by refurb » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #129

refurb wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But my understanding is that's not how unions work in Europe. Typically the unions see themselves as another party that benefits from a successful and profitable company. You are correct that they have different goals, but the difference is is that they want the same thing. At least in the US, you see much more antagonistic approach. Company is facing cheap imports that hurt sales? Some unions say "fuck you, not my p…

The more cooperative relationship in Europe was the result of the labour movement largely winning , in the sense of gaining sufficient political power that the balance of legal protections shifted to a point where the struggles even when heated are generally much less of an existential crisis. Keep in mind that for many decades, especially from the 1840's onwards, much of Europe was a total powder-key with countries…

This view seems to completely ignore the difference structure of unions in the EU.

And unions didn’t win in the US? Have you looked into the auto industry unions at all? The certainly did win for a few decades and it basically broke the back of GM.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#135

Post by teclordphrack2 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

eventualhorizon wrote: post #84

ceejayoz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Walmart "associates" particularly well off as a result?

Walmart was a very different company under Sam Walton. Sam tried to visit every store once a year. When he got there he would throw the managers out and talk with the employees to find whether or not the managers were doing their jobs. He also believed in empowering the employees. Employees were responsible for particular sections of the store and had access to sales and inventory data and made decisions about how th…

Sam was not anything to be admired. He ripped off his employees pay and when he finally lost the legal battle he threatened any employee that cashed the check.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#136

Post by teclordphrack2 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #70

apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

>And divisiveness, by breaking down direct communication, makes it harder to take care of customers, to be competitive, and to gain market share That is all true, it also makes it easier for employees to negotiate a better deal for themselves, which then encourages management to replace the people with foreign labor or robots. Such is life.

but they do that without a union. So whats your point?

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#137

Post by vidarh » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 8:11 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #134

vidarh wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more cooperative relationship in Europe was the result of the labour movement largely winning , in the sense of gaining sufficient political power that the balance of legal protections shifted to a point where the struggles even when heated are generally much less of an existential crisis. Keep in mind that for many decades, especially from the 1840's onwards, much of Europe was a total powder-key with countries…

This view seems to completely ignore the difference structure of unions in the EU. And unions didn’t win in the US? Have you looked into the auto industry unions at all? The certainly did win for a few decades and it basically broke the back of GM.

> This view seems to completely ignore the difference structure of unions in the EU.

The difference in structure is not that great. The main distinction is that closed shops are extremely rare in Europe, but closed shops are fairly rare in the US too. Other than that, union organizing in the US is still lagging decades behind because such a small portion of the workforce is unionised.

> And unions didn’t win in the US? Have you looked into the auto industry unions at all? The certainly did win for a few decades and it basically broke the back of GM.

No, unions did not win in the US in any shape or form. Union membership in the US is extremely low. Union influence on political parties is extremely low. Union ownership or influence on media is extremely low. US unions struggle to fight for rights that have been taken for granted across most of Europe for half a century or more after unions won them.

US unions were groundbreaking, but their progress stalled outside a few areas and few sectors.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#138

Post by vidarh » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 8:22 AM UTC

kodah wrote: post #125

vidarh wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's good to understand many perspectives before picking a side, if any. With that in mind, I'd point out that the history of unionisation in America (and everywhere) is one of extensive bloodshed as employees have died both from unsafe labour practices [1], as well as from outright murder, intimidation and other attempts at shutting down organisation of labour. So, yeah, it's divisive. May 1st as the international…

> It's very easy to ask people to not be "divisive" when you're the one with the money and the power, and not the ones who have the rights they have now as a consequence of the deaths and sacrifices of people being "divisive" by daring to stand up for themselves. The person you're replying to is talking about how people act in discussions about this topic. So, with that in mind, who can ask you (read: metaphorical yo…

> The person you're replying to is talking about how people act in discussions about this topic.

Yes, but posted an extremely self-serving (for Walton) quote of Walton, and argued different perspectives were important. So I offered a counter to Walton.

My point being that it is deeply insulting to expect of someone to not be "divisive" when involving parties in a conflict with a century-long history of outright bloodshed, alongside a whole host of brutal practices. It's a classic tactic to put an opponent on the defensive to suggest they're being "divisive, aggressive, or stand-offish" and by extension implying their side is not that and more. You can't metaphorically punch people in the face and then complain afterwards that they're now "aggressive".

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#139

Post by Jyaif » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

zelon88 wrote: post #40

dannyw wrote: post #3

Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

"Competitive" wages are a form of slavery. It means you don't truly consider the employees value. You just pay him 15 cents more than the guy down the street.

But then the guy down the street will have no one to employ, so he'll have to pay 15 cents more than the other guy, and so on and so forth.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#140

Post by kodah » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #138

kodah wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's very easy to ask people to not be "divisive" when you're the one with the money and the power, and not the ones who have the rights they have now as a consequence of the deaths and sacrifices of people being "divisive" by daring to stand up for themselves. The person you're replying to is talking about how people act in discussions about this topic. So, with that in mind, who can ask you (read: metaphorical yo…

> The person you're replying to is talking about how people act in discussions about this topic. Yes, but posted an extremely self-serving (for Walton) quote of Walton, and argued different perspectives were important. So I offered a counter to Walton. My point being that it is deeply insulting to expect of someone to not be "divisive" when involving parties in a conflict with a century-long history of outright blood…

Right, but we're not talking about Sam Walton debating you about unions, we're talking about an everyday person who might end up joining one. You either missed the part where OP is talking about behavior in comments on this site or you're willfully ignoring it to make a point about Sam Walton and power. Unless you think it's okay to take the full history of unions and people's suffering on your back and wear it on your sleeve.

I'm guessing this is exactly what people are saying is off-putting about pro union behavior.

Believe it or not, people do find it detestful when companies push back on unions with underhanded techniques. They get off-put when what is clearly propaganda comes out of their mouths. Pro-union people, representing the union online or anywhere else, are held much to the same standard that any company or corporate employee would.