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Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

reuters.com

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Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#121

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

Are Walmart "associates" particularly well off as a result?

Better off than what? Than if they had a union?

Maybe we can look at example like the US auto industry to get an answer there? The answer being "if you were an early member of the union, yeah, a later member, not so much".

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#122

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

>But historically, as unions have developed in this country, they have mostly just been divisive. They have put management on one side of the fence, employees on the other, and themselves in the middle as almost a separate business, one that depends on division between the other two camps. But workers and management really are on two different sides of the fence. We have intrinsically opposed material interests. Mana…

But my understanding is that's not how unions work in Europe. Typically the unions see themselves as another party that benefits from a successful and profitable company. You are correct that they have different goals, but the difference is is that they want the same thing.

At least in the US, you see much more antagonistic approach. Company is facing cheap imports that hurt sales? Some unions say "fuck you, not my problem, pay me".

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#123
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, that's because amazon gives its workers health insurance. Plenty of similar workers get nothing (Walmart for instance). More generally I agree this needs totally rethinking, but Democrats have been trying to do that for at least 20 years so it might be a list cause...

> Plenty of similar workers get nothing (Walmart for instance). That doesn't seem to be the case. https://one.walmart.com/content/dam/themepage/pdfs/Associate...

As I understand it... You only get coverage if you work 30h a week (and pay for it, per your link). Walmart usually schedules people for fewer hours a week to avoid this.

This is why (despite technically providing healthcare) Walmart is number one for employees enrolled in Medicaid [0].

Amazon's insurance kicks in at 20h a week [1]

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-...

[1] https://www.amazon.jobs/en/landing_pages/benefitsoverview-us

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#125
post #91

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

> It's good to understand many perspectives before picking a side, if any. With that in mind, I'd point out that the history of unionisation in America (and everywhere) is one of extensive bloodshed as employees have died both from unsafe labour practices [1], as well as from outright murder, intimidation and other attempts at shutting down organisation of labour. So, yeah, it's divisive. May 1st as the international…

> It's very easy to ask people to not be "divisive" when you're the one with the money and the power, and not the ones who have the rights they have now as a consequence of the deaths and sacrifices of people being "divisive" by daring to stand up for themselves.

The person you're replying to is talking about how people act in discussions about this topic.

So, with that in mind, who can ask you (read: metaphorical you) to not be divisive, aggressive, or stand-offish when discussing unions with lay people?

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#126
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rent's still due Monday. Hypothetically let's say Amazon is found to be at fault, even if action is taken your still out of work. I consider myself fairly educated, and I still have no idea what remedies exist if Amazon was to close a warehouse due to unionization. For working class people who are more concerned about paying their bills, voting for a union sounds like a very risky proposition. There's a very good cha…

This sounds like fear mongering. How often do union votes result in closures?

Walmart shut down an entire section of it's business because a group successfully unionized.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#127
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walmart was a very different company under Sam Walton. Sam tried to visit every store once a year. When he got there he would throw the managers out and talk with the employees to find whether or not the managers were doing their jobs. He also believed in empowering the employees. Employees were responsible for particular sections of the store and had access to sales and inventory data and made decisions about how th…

Computerization of stock control and sales made trusting and empowering the employees much less necessary. I suspect his attitude would not have lasted even if he had survived.

> Computerization of stock control and sales made trusting and empowering the employees much less necessary.

It also makes distrusting them less necessary because you can know that they've done their jobs because everything is scanned and tracked. You don't have to use stupid proxies for productivity ("if you have time to lean you have time to clean") because you can actually measure inputs and outputs with more detail.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#128
post #3

Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. Maybe a majority of the workers there prefer the status quo?

>Amazon is offering competitive wages (especially for Albama's cost of living), and benefits from day one. No. Amazon does not. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/business/economy/amazon-w... >The most recent figure for the median wage in greater Birmingham, a metropolitan area of roughly one million people that includes Bessemer, was nearly $3 above Amazon’s pay there, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Exactly. You can work at amazon with zero skills and be only 3 dollars behind the median of a population full of doctors and lawyers...

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#129
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But historically, as unions have developed in this country, they have mostly just been divisive. They have put management on one side of the fence, employees on the other, and themselves in the middle as almost a separate business, one that depends on division between the other two camps. But workers and management really are on two different sides of the fence. We have intrinsically opposed material interests. Mana…

But my understanding is that's not how unions work in Europe. Typically the unions see themselves as another party that benefits from a successful and profitable company. You are correct that they have different goals, but the difference is is that they want the same thing. At least in the US, you see much more antagonistic approach. Company is facing cheap imports that hurt sales? Some unions say "fuck you, not my p…

The more cooperative relationship in Europe was the result of the labour movement largely winning, in the sense of gaining sufficient political power that the balance of legal protections shifted to a point where the struggles even when heated are generally much less of an existential crisis.

Keep in mind that for many decades, especially from the 1840's onwards, much of Europe was a total powder-key with countries facing revolutions left right and centre, and the political landscape changing rapidly to accommodate this. E.g. Bismarcks massive healthcare and pension reforms in the 1880's were inexorably linked to his fear of revolution. To take another example, in 1923 the Norwegian right wing were absolutely horrified when - after they failed to negotiate a coalition - the king appointed the Labour Party leader to the post of prime minister (at the time Labour was still a communist party); the government was voted down immediately (and the king would have known that would happen), but it still forced the other parties to realise they could not ignore the demands of the labour movement any more.

In the post-war periods the social democratic and socialist parties across Western Europe either got into power or became a substantial threat to the right in most countries, and as a result you saw sweeping welfare reforms, healthcare reforms and others across large parts of the continent.

Unions that had for decades in many cases been outright communists were moderated by the combination of starting to fear the Soviets coupled with major wins for labour rights that made them less inclined to rock the boat.

It's a whole lot easier to win support for a more cooperative approach when people saw negotiation actually working for them, and employer increasingly being willing to sit down from the start rather than employ the kind of tactics Amazon has been accused of using (I'm not taking a stance on whether or not they've done the things they've been accused of, but these kinds of things are not new in terms of US employers fighting unionisation).

US unions have remained far more militant because US employers have remained far more militant. Active use of actual violence on both sides remained prevalent much longer, for starters.

You're not going to see those hostile fronts change unless workers rights are substantially strengthened to the point that not enough people find the hardline approach worthwhile any more.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#130
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re not American, it’s difficult to understand. However, insurance is an absolute scam in the US. You pay hundreds of dollars per month for the privilege of having to pay thousands of dollars before your insurance will start paying. For many families the monthly premiums could run over a thousand dollars, and the deductible could be $15,000. …or you could get some cheap catastrophic insurance, and pay cash for…

I can understand not wanting to deal with insurers, especially American ones, but I can't understand accepting that that means either no healthcare or potentially catastrophic losses. You can never know that you're not going to need healthcare.

Well you used to be able to buy decent catastrophic insurance to protect you from unlimited losses. ACA effectively killed that type of insurance.
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