New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#671

Post by intergalplan » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 8:44 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #663

intergalplan wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 98.8% (!) of preschool and kindergarten teachers are female I'm fairly sure a big part of the driver for the imbalance in education is that being a teacher is one of the only ways, other than being a full-time employee (not contractor) some place like Google, to access European-like levels of parental leave, plus European-like levels of time-off, generally, which is also hugely valuable when you have kids, while al…

I don't disagree with you, but it's notable that the gender imbalance for teachers diminishes as the kids get older. * Preschool and kindergarten teachers 98.8% female * Elementary and middle school teachers 79.6% female * Secondary school teachers 58.8% female * Postsecondary teachers 51.1% female There's clearly a lot more going on here.

Right, preferences and "guys teaching little kids is creepy" play a role, and maybe some other stuff.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#672

Post by tomjen3 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 8:46 PM UTC

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #182

livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense. This is so true. I've seen polling showing that large numbers of people believe that the number of unarmed black men fatally shot by American police every year is in the "thousands" or even "tens of thousands". And the further to the left the media people consume, the higher they're likely to believe the number is. The ac…

If this was really a fact, surely you have a source for it?

Because if you are the one out of a group who comes up with a number drastically out of what other people estimate, it seems reasonable to assume you are the one who are in the wrong.

And of course unarmed doesn't mean innocent anymore than being armed means being in the wrong.

I am challenging you to a source for two reasons: to make sure you are not just making the number up, and because I want to see what the source defines as being unarmed and how they determine that.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#673

Post by kiawe_fire » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

ramphastidae wrote: post #59

kiawe_fire wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the paradoxical struggle I've had, from day one, at the startup for which I work. I was praised for being "fresh eyes" and having "creative ideas", only to be reminded "how we do things here" after producing something that I thought would be a progressive way of addressing the company's challenges. I continue to try new directions, and every once in a while something sticks, but often times I just have to be…

This is normal. If you are an IC or middle manager you are there to execute (do what your boss says). Defining process and culture is not your job. Whether your process is better or not is besides the point. Fighting this will only lead to political pain.

Sure. But it’s frustrating when management says that they want me to help improve processes and produce “new and different” only for me to deliver what they say they want and realize they really didn’t want that.

In my case, it’s not so much “do what your boss says” so much as it’s “try to figure out if your boss really wants you to do what he/she says or if they just like the idea of change and really just want you to leave everything alone”.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#674

Post by w0de0 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

the-smug-one wrote: post #249

oblio wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I remember, in polite circles it was always known that you should never discuss politics and religion with anyone except your immediate family and close friends.

"The Fall of Public Man" argues that we actually used to be more political and had to "put our cards on the table" so to speak. This would be as opposed to now, where we are very much able to hide our positions if we so please. I don't know what polite circles would be, but I suppose some sort of aristocracy? Certainly gentile society in 1780s in France were not scared of expressing heavy political discourse in publi…

The polite society he refers to which originated this standard is the English gentry, with whom American political culture has much more in common than either the Latin aristocracies you mention or the Gallic working class.

In America there is a tension between Jacksonian public man populism of the type you allude to and gentrified politesse of southern planters and northern merchants. In short, you’re both right.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#675

Post by wpietri » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #650

wpietri wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a well-off white guy. Please explain why you think I can't talk openly about a group I'm in, one that was favored by law and custom starting right at the beginning of my country.

Your skin color and socioeconomic status are irrelevant. You can talk openly about whatever you like. The fact that you don't understand how awful it is to talk about a "well-off white male mentality" is an indictment of you as a person. You've lost the plot completely and your worldview is characterized by comic levels of intolerance.

Ah yes. Ad hominems without any substance at all. As I expected.

What you are experiencing is white fragility. You can read more about the phenomenon here: https://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/view/249

The truth is that when discussing societal power in the US, both race and socioeconomic status are hugely relevant. And have been since the founding of this country, when by law only well-off white men could vote.

I understand facing that frankly makes some people, you included, uncomfortable to the point of irrationality. I suggest you get over it, as the issues are not going away.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#676

Post by mr_toad » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #270

feverfew wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second chance :P > being completely taboo it was never discussed > speaking one's mind in public nowadays is fraught with dangers.

There is a tremendous difference between "never discussed" and "not brought up in public". Examples of topics that are discussed but not brought up in public are your child's struggle with potty training, whether you will provide them with birth control, whether anal sex is safe, when you and your partner like to have sex, when you intend to conceive, that weird discharge that sometimes comes out your nose, and what…

Funny that you should make a leap from gay to sex and bodily functions. I’m pretty sure that being gay is not just about sex.

What about dating, relationships, marriage, and having a family? These things are commonly discussed at work. Fifty or sixty years ago being known to be in a gay relationship could be very professionally damaging.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#677

Post by slibhb » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:36 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #675

slibhb wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your skin color and socioeconomic status are irrelevant. You can talk openly about whatever you like. The fact that you don't understand how awful it is to talk about a "well-off white male mentality" is an indictment of you as a person. You've lost the plot completely and your worldview is characterized by comic levels of intolerance.

Ah yes. Ad hominems without any substance at all. As I expected. What you are experiencing is white fragility. You can read more about the phenomenon here: https://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/view/249 The truth is that when discussing societal power in the US, both race and socioeconomic status are hugely relevant. And have been since the founding of this country, when by law only well-off white men could vote.…

The idea that there is a well-off white-male way of looking at the world ("To me it looks like a couple of well-off white guys...") is the idea that humans are concrete beings whose consciousnesses are determined by certain identity categories (socio-economic status, skin color, sex).

You apparently don't think that your consciousness is determined by those categories. Just those of other well-off white-males.

I have no patience for this stuff. I learned in kindergarten that this way of looking at the world is morally bankrupt. You have to treat people as individuals. For one thing, because that's how you view yourself, as someone singular. For another, because there is no way to quantify human behavior in terms of this or that category, no such theories exist. And finally, because the idea that a person can be summarized by socioeconomic status, sex, or skin color is associated with crimes against humanity.

It's frankly embarrassing for me to see adults behaving as you do. And to drive home the point, your comeback is "you're white" and link Robin DiAngelo.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#678

Post by dbrueck » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

omniglottal wrote: post #665

dbrueck wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? There is no guarantee of anything, for anyone. But in terms of risk management, you can take some extremely simple steps to reduce the risk to approximately zero. Here's "the talk" that all parents can have with their kids: 1) Do your best to avoid breaking the law or associating with people that do. 2) If you have a police encounter, cooperate. Does that /guarantee/ anything? Of course not. But follow those two…

Step #2 is precisely the opposite of the advice that keeps innocent victims of the police out of jail. Cooperate, sure, but the actual advice that lawyers provide is not to talk, and end the interaction as firmly and respectfully as possible. As a reminder, cops are encouraged and professionally trained to manipulate and deceive, and they will use anything you say against you. Your advice might work more effectively…

> Step #2 is precisely the opposite of the advice that keeps innocent victims of the police out of jail. Cooperate, sure

So... not quite the opposite after all? :)

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#679

Post by creata » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:21 AM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #563

stickfigure wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but I still think there's an important point in there. We (society) do a lot of handwringing about CEO and engineering jobs, but these aren't even remotely the most gender-asymmetric careers out there. According to [1], "Locomotive engineers and operators" are 92.3 percent male. I'm willing to bet that if you can "fix" that problem - or even conclusively identify the cause - gender imbalance issues in other fi…

“fixing” that “problem” would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest. How do you propose to force them to change their desires?

> would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest

This is a blatant non sequitur. Counterexample:

It's hard in many places to be a male schoolteacher, because men are seen by parents and other staff as potential predators, to the point where some people won't even trust a man to change their kid's diapers. Men have said that this is a big reason they don't want to become schoolteachers, so if we help change public opinion on this front, then we've ostensibly lessened a gender imbalance without "forcing" any men to "change their desires."

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#680

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:53 AM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #660

KMag wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the only people who are against interracial marriage are straight-ticket crazy people, and this sorting of society is superficially "polarization" I'm not sure which metric of polarization is typically used in studies, but the situation you describe (vast majority agreeing, with a tiny minority in an extreme position) intuitively sounds like approaching consensus. Intuitively, with some survey measure of 0 to 1…

> " Intuitively, with some survey measure of 0 to 10, maximum polarization would be 50% of respondents responding 0 and 50% of respondents responding 10. Minimum polarization would be 100% of respondents giving the same answer (regardless of what that answer is). " A world where 50% of people live at the North Pole, 50% at the South Pole and nobody at the equator, is polarized. So is a world where 90% of people live…

Indeed, and the discourse around American political polarization is centered around the Pew poll which poses binary choices like the one between "homosexuality should be accepted by society" or "homosexuality should be discouraged by society", not questions that have scales of agreement from 0-10.