New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#611

Post by rovolo » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #594

rovolo wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are: 55k "Locomotive engineers and operators" (90% male) 1.7m "Chief executives" (70% male) 1.9m "Software developers" (80% male) 3.2m "Architecture and engineering occupations" (85% male) Maybe there is a lot of handwringing within the locomotive industry, but it really doesn't seem important enough for the rest of us to care about.

Not that agree or disagree, but... Using that logic, why should we care at all. Less than 7 million out of about 170 million in the workforce. Shouldn't we be looking a other, more common jobs? (On a side note I'm surprised software devs are only 1.9 million)

There are two orders of magnitude difference between the number locomotive operators and the CEO & engineering jobs:

55k/7m = 0.8%

7m/170m = 4%

There's a legit difference between arguing about a $40k line item on a $1m house sale and a $400 line item.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#612

Post by ttt0 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

creata wrote: post #454

nostromo wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it points to a theory that societal norms serve to re-enforce the expectation of taking jobs in lower paying fields on women versus men. That’s one theory. Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions.

> Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions. That's not a theory, that's just restating the question! Why is the distribution the way it is, and should we make efforts to change it?

Because men and women are physiologically different and are just not attracted to the same things. For example most women don't like hunting, while men do, most likely due to evolutionary reasons.

If it's just about statistics not looking as nice and even as we'd like then no, in my opinion we shouldn't make any efforts to change it.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#613

Post by M2Ys4U » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

mmmmmbop wrote: post #426

mrec wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> liberal (as in right-wing) What the hell? These terms are in no way synonyms. You seem to be fairly extreme left, which is fine, but then labelling everyone to the right of you as "right-wing" is not a useful classification. "Left" and "right" are relative to the political centre, not to wherever you yourself happen to be.

Please consider the possibility that GP is from a different country than you are and that liberal may mean something different there. For example in Sweden, the Liberals are a party that "historically was positioned in the centre" but has since "positioned itself more towards the right". [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberals_(Sweden)

Even so, left-right and liberal-authoritarian are orthogonal axes.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#614

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

Hmm. Seems like, in a political discussion/argument, the least open mind "wins", because they are the most impervious to evidence.

But the consequence is that the other side becomes less open minded too. They've tried arguing with someone who Just. Will. Not. Listen, who Just. Will. Not. Think. And when they run into the same arguments from someone else, they are less likely to be willing to listen themselves.

It's hard to stay open minded in the middle of this. It's a battle. There are areas I just don't want to talk about any more. So I guess I'm losing the battle, at least to some degree.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#615

Post by BlueTemplar » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #234

Aerroon wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics in English-speaking countries, particularly the US, seems to have partly become entertainment. Some of the "fans" appear more fervent than even the politicians themselves. I'm an outsider and even I've been drawn into US politics, because it is entertaining. Sometimes it's more entertaining than a fictional story. But I doubt that this makes for sensible governing.

Their election cycles happen every 2 years and I think there's no time limit for electoral advertising. So they're always promoting candidates, almost all year round. To top that off, they have only two parties and party affiliation is almost like supporting a sports club. A recipe for great objectivity.

The problem is when political polarization becomes so strong that they become two separate ethnicities. The USA would probably have already fallen apart if it wasn't a federal country ?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#616

Post by giantg2 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #527

giantg2 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Therefore, career choice, and the pay outcomes, are not truly based on merit or ability, and can be controlled by unfair external factors. Further, what this means is that the playing field is not level. Some people will have advantages, just because of how they were born - which is the issue we started with." I could be a doctor, or a lawyer, or some other high paying powerful job, but I chose not to. Does that hav…

I think we have a miscommunication and an issue with a lack of common definitions between the two of us. >The idea that the pay is based on someone's innate abilities or merits is insane Merit is not innate ability. Merit is just ability - not natural ability. This is a combination of skill, willingness to learn, hard work, grit, access to resources, and (yes some innate factors such as disability status) other facto…

"Therefore, career choice, and the pay outcomes, are not truly based on merit or ability, and can be controlled by unfair external factors."

"Merit is not innate ability. Merit is just ability - not natural ability. This is a combination of skill, willingness to learn, hard work, grit, access to resources, and (yes some innate factors such as disability status) other factors contained inside the person - but very few of these are predetermined."

How are these both true? Career choice and pay is not based on merit, yet merit is a measure of your ability. Wouldn't you need the ability to choose a career and be successful at it? My point is that if you have the merit, you will have the job and the pay.

"Yes, individuals have responsibility for their own futures, but there needs to be an acknowledgment and work toward overcoming the arbitrary barriers society has put in place for some people based on innate characteristics such as gender."

I don't see any real barriers. I understand that some people may be swayed by the opinions of others. For example, some people may not want to be strippers of pornstars due to stigma. But that is not a true barrier to entry. They have every right to pursue that career. If we live in a society where group-think is so important that you will decline a career or job based on what other people think and not on your morals or beliefs, then I feel this says more about the sad state of that individuals self-imposed restrictions in freedom than it does about "society". After all, society has approved of those careers by allowing them to be lawful.

"It's about equality in opportunity, not equality in outcome."

"What I am saying----- the playing field is not level for all contenders, based on external factors."

What makes you say the playing field is not level and that equal opportunity does not exist?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#617

Post by Tycho » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

rovolo wrote: post #583

Tycho wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lot of advice floating about the workplace these days along the lines of be candid, join the conversation, bring your whole self to work, etc. The people giving this advice seem to have no conception that not everyone actively engaged in these topics is acting in 100% good faith. Being too open could so easily backfire. Encouraging this is borderline negligent. Indeed there’s entire branches of activism that rest on…

When I hear "bring your whole self to work", I think of gay people who couldn't mention their loved ones because that would out them. When you say there should be a "strong separation between your private life", I don't think you're expecting to never mention your family. Maybe your partner is sick and you're feeling stressed. In a supportive environment, shouldn't that be mentioned? Even though the personal is polit…

I don’t disagree with the idea that people shouldn’t have to hide certain things. I’m just commenting on the apparent naivety of the people recommending greater openness, like they don’t acknowledge the pitfalls, the potential ambushes.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#618

Post by sollewitt » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #565

sollewitt wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data on lifetime likelihood of death by cop in the US by ethnicity. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 It's very evident the US has strong implicit biases just from the Justice system. We could also look at incarceration rates, or sentencing disparities by ethnicity. At some point saying "hey, we can't just _assume_ this is racist" _appears_ less like good faith debate and more like bad faith denialism.

Statistics do not prove intent, unless you want us to use the same data to prove that the Justice system is an order of magnitude more sexist than racist because 2000% more men are killed then women. The numbers for incarceration rates and sentencing disparities are similar damning. If we go by the data in the study, the likelihood of death by cop in the US is determined by age first, gender second, race third. If we…

Agreed, I think one of the ways the two camps talk past each other is using "racist" to refer to both the motive of individual actors and the systemic and cultural biases.

Also yes, the judicial system is also sexist - police don't see women as being threats demanding lethal force, juries are more willing to see women as victims including of their circumstances. That's not the only reason for discrepancies, sociobiology looks into links between biological factors and criminality too, but the cultural issues are enough that defendants are coached to behave differently based on gender.

I see your final point, but my hunch is if you dig in to the correlation between age, gender and race with economics and geography, the eigenvalues will be ordered the other way (race, gender, age) - and if so I think that would indicate the Justice system is only a reflection of the larger society, rather than negate the idea of a racist justice system?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#619

Post by textgel » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #362

textgel wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which rights are they curtailing and how are they doing it?

Right to Protest: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sent... We will no longer be allowed to exceed a certain noise level with protests. This is done at the same time that the government annouces a 'War on Woke'. I'd laugh at how blatant the hypocrisy is but having my civil rights eroded spoils the punchline.

That's a fair point; tbh I can't make any excuse for whatever they're trying to pull off with that; I've heard a lot of complaints about the UK govs approach to things; sounds like they're upsetting just about most people.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#620

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #157

Progressivism is the new Christianity, taking over the pagan landscape. It used to be that politics (in the UK) was class based. You are this or that based on your background. Two people from different classes would understand why the other did not support the same political party. That was how it was, and nobody felt the other should not exist. Everyone felt the other had a place in society. These progressive ideolo…

> When you have all kinds, within your ranks you cannot accomplish much of substance without upsetting your own comrades.

The purges will come soon enough.