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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#461

Post by andrepd »

hilbert42 wrote: post #314
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

"However, I fear the repercussions of offending others who do not have an open mind." You're dead right and it's damned terrible. I long for both formal and informal debates on many topics but without my opponents becoming annoyed or offended (as so often they do nowadays). These days it seems almost impossible to debate any subject without upsetting someone. I now long for the type of television programs that I reme…

> I now long for the type of television programs that I remember from my youth—talking heads discussing and debating serious topics.

There are orders of magnitude more such content now than there was for instance 40 years ago. There's probably hundreds of hours of your favourite philosopher/economist/pundit's lectures/debates/speeches at your fingertips. Click-click and you literally begin to hear them talk in less than 30 seconds. This probably includes those very programmes from ages ago!

This whole type of complaint reeks of "back in my day" appeals to nostalgia.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#462

Post by ModernMech »

dustinmoris wrote: post #343
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> I feel as though I am more open-minded than many others. I am always ready to be corrected if I am wrong, and I am always willing to discuss my views with people subscribing to other political ideologies. However, I fear the repercussions of offending others who do not have an open mind. This is how every open and critically minded person feels nowadays. There is a clear line between two groups: 1. People who think…

So let me get this straight: one group is rational, open, and critically minded; while the other is irrational, violent, and aggressive. And people are clearly either in group 1 or group 2. Let me guess, you see yourself as belonging to group 1? If so, what a very convenient worldview you've constructed for yourself.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#463

Post by Loughla »

Covzire wrote: post #25
Clewza313 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pitch perfect example of polarization: the previous poster said "there’s too much virtue signaling at work", and now you're strongly implying that anybody who feels this way is a "racist".

It's all the news shows anymore. They could cover many other things, maybe throw in a few positive stories, but cable news and largely the whole industry is just one growing dark cloud.

Local news (small town of How does that matter to me? It sucks, and it's a tragedy, but it has literally zero impact on my life.

But it sure makes good news for people to worry about.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#464

Post by zozbot234 »

Loughla wrote: post #446
zozbot234 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libertarians have always been favorable to "the freedom to have a different sexual orientation"; it's not a "new" issue that was only discovered recently. However, conservatives and libertarians have always known that the freedom to live one's life as one desires can never extend beyond the point where others' freedoms are curtailed. Otherwise it's not actual freedom, but mere licence.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Please explain. Are the first sentence and the second sentence connected? If so, I am lost.

It's hard to answer because I'm not sure what you're asking, or why you are confused. The first and second sentence are describing libertarians' understanding of freedom as a value, and how this connects with "preserving existing values" to use GP's phrasing. It's quite wrong to say that sexual orientation "was not part of our culture in the past", as GP contends (unless you mean a quite remote past). If anything, it was understood in a far more nuanced way that always involved tolerance for others' orientations and value systems.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#465

Post by andrepd »

fractallyte wrote: post #364
hilbert42 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, I fear the repercussions of offending others who do not have an open mind." You're dead right and it's damned terrible. I long for both formal and informal debates on many topics but without my opponents becoming annoyed or offended (as so often they do nowadays). These days it seems almost impossible to debate any subject without upsetting someone. I now long for the type of television programs that I reme…

In the good old days, there was Spitting Image, which delighted in offending everyone ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitting_Image

You mean the very programme that was revived last year...?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#466

Post by adamrezich »

hilbert42 wrote: post #314
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

"However, I fear the repercussions of offending others who do not have an open mind." You're dead right and it's damned terrible. I long for both formal and informal debates on many topics but without my opponents becoming annoyed or offended (as so often they do nowadays). These days it seems almost impossible to debate any subject without upsetting someone. I now long for the type of television programs that I reme…

people have been programmed, on a massive scale, to react emotionally to certain learned key phrases and terms. when this automatic emotional reaction occurs, all logical processing ceases immediately, and the person you're talking to either immediately leaves the conversation (if you're lucky) or starts emotionally, verbally attacking you as though your non-conforming line of thought is a pathogen and their overreacting response is an antibody swarm. you're a strawman caricature of everything evil and wrong if you question basic learned political orthodoxy, even if you make it clear you're approaching the topic with an open mind.

TV and social media "debates" between politicians are 100% posturing, signaling, and rhetoric without any substance, and almost nobody can see it, everyone thinks their guy won.

it's as though we've forgotten how to think for ourselves and have opinions and stances that lay outside dogmatic groupthink. I even know a few people who think of themselves as "free thinkers" who nevertheless hitch their proverbial cart to some political eceleb personality's proverbial horse, buying into everything they say, wholesale.

people want to be told what to think, not how to think, as it's much easier that way.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#467

Post by andrepd »

dbrueck wrote: post #413
tstrimple wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. It's not hyperbole or an exaggeration. We did have a rally with a bunch of white nationalists exercising their "free speech" to chant "The Jews will not replace us" and they ended up murdering someone there. We had a National Security Advisor to the President of the United States promoting replacement theory. There a…

Applying those labels to people who are objectively and overtly acting that way is not the problem. The problem is that way too often people are assuming it's there. It's a presumption of intent, "racism is one possible explanation for your viewpoint, therefore I somehow /just know/ that you are a racist person". Example: every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread ass…

> Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation

Well, is there?? Everybody I seem to interact with doesn't think so. Where are all those bogeymen chanting racism right away? Surely you can quote some sort of survey to back up your perception, right?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#468

Post by amalcon »

vixen99 wrote: post #443
amalcon wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you a bit here, but this feels like a good place to express something I've been having trouble with. My parents raised me to do my best to neither take nor give offense. Most of my peers as a child were taught the same way. Obviously we're not Vulcans; We will sometimes inadvertently give offense, or respond emotionally to something that may have been meant innocuously. Yet so much of what I s…

Pubic culture? Should that be flagged?

Oops, that's not a great typo. It's too late to edit, though.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#469

Post by catpatter »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #280
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense This is modern anti-culture. It's a climate where "opinions" matter more than knowledge and consumerism matters more than democracy. There are many employers. I am an employee, but I am first and foremost a citizen in a Democracy... If I have the courage to defend it and the will to learn/educate. An educational system worth th…

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

Isaac Asimov

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#470

Post by sharikone »

The real problem is the lack of proportions around "viewpoint diversity". A flat earther, a neo-Nazi, an anarchist, a conspiracy theorist have all different viewpoints. But we can't ask people to stop referring to the Earth as flat not to offend flat-Earthers.

And, particularly from the leftwing there is a phenomenon where if you as much as disagree to some minor policy point you become the enemy of the people the same as Hitler.

There is no solution to this conflict, since the very principles that encourage tolerance towards different views is an ideology in itself so you should tolerate that people can be intolerant.

I believe workplaces should just make it clear that the most important thing is to produce good work (a reasonable demand since they pay you) and that any political view should be acceptable if you do your job

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