Live data from Hacker News

New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

ethicalsystems.org

271–280 of 734 posts

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#271

I might be one of these progressive activists, and this is interesting to read and reflect on. I am quite vocal about culture, hiring, compensation etc, though I would definitely not say that I feel "confident being vocal" - it actually feels very exposed and quite vulnerable (in part because others don't necessarily share their own views). The reason I'm still vocal about it is that I care, I would feel much more sa…

As someone who is very much not one of the 13%, I'm curious: how would you react to objections and disagreement on those issues?

As someone who is definitely considered "a progressive activist" I may add my 2cents:

I am not quite sure what you mean with objections? If you mean that people are not willing to talk about those things: I accept it, and stop talking about it. (Aslong as it is no direct issue like those people using the N-word, or being racist in general.)

About disagreement: It would be pretty strange if everyone would have the same opionion? I ask people about their reasons and try to understand their point of view. If they have valid arguments that I was not aware of, I am open to change my opinion.

BUT: If people come at me saying: Climate Change is a hoax, The complete media and science is controlled by the elites etc... Then i stop talking to them, as they would never consider an argument opposing to their opinion as valid.

AND: If someone considers people inferior only because of their gender, their race or their religion? Then I tell them indirectly, to go and **** themselfs.*

* At work I would try to be more diplomatic. Otherwise a whole team dynamic could be destroyed. But In my personal environment, I am as direct as possible. I do not want those people in my life.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#272
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say as many wrong things as you want, but you cannot expect that there will be no consequences. Those consequences range from people not wishing to associate with you anymore at the mildest end, to actual fines and jail time, if your speech can be proven to have directly incited violence (the bar for which various according to country and jurisdiction). You can't just claim that "I have no control over these…

If freedom of speech is so limited, does it even exist as a freedom anymore? You could say I have the "freedom to take anything I want" except I mustn't take anything that belongs to somebody else. Do I really have any freedom with that restriction in place? Personally I don't think we have freedom of speech (in the UK, certainly legally we do not). You have to be careful of what you say and who you say it to. Maybe…

It is absolutely a freedom.

The really important thing here is that your freedom does not overrule the freedom of others. It's freedom of speech, not an obligation to listen to or agree with or condone what you say.

As always, if your greatest argument for saying something is that you have the right to say it, maybe reconsider what you're about to say.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#273
post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

I think this is missing the thrust of the issue which is that is, for some groups, certain kinds of politics invariably involve work and are a moral imperative. If this were about issues likee 'big vs. small government' then it wouldn't be a problem. But it's about political issues like 'diversity in the workplace' and 'Corporate support for Social Justice' (such as BLM) - as the big Elephant in the Room subject. So…

> But it's about political issues like 'diversity in the workplace' and 'Corporate support for Social Justice' (such as BLM)

but the problem with this view is that we are implementing a policy in a political way. There are many ways to argue for diversity that are either purely economic or practical. The issue here isn't the policy, its who and how its sold/pushed through.

There are companies that are run by, or full of shouty political types. Part of the interview process is to sniff out that kind of company and avoid like the plague. The post you linked to is evidence of that.

The other thing to mention is that US based companies are far more willing to let their works talk politics in the open. In the UK you are rightly looked at as suspect if you speak out on politics or religion.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at UK politics… It's funny how people who are conservative claim their right to free speech is being curtailed when at the same time they're busy curtailing the rights of people who aren't like them - immigrants, non-Cis, non-white people, climate change protesters etc. Oh and let's not forget that the conservatives in the UK branded the likely implications of Brexit as “project fear”

Which rights are they curtailing and how are they doing it?

Laws that affect right to protest such as the one that's currently proceeding through parliament.

Anti-immigrant, anti-gay, anti-trans columns in papers like Telegraph, Mail etc.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#275
post #147
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought? To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink. There is perhaps a separate discussion to be had about the…

Freedom from speech can only mean freedom from consequences, but virtually nobody thinks all speech should be free from all consequences.

For example, if the government allows its critics to speak freely, but then puts them in prison [1], is that free speech? No. So because of a consequence, speech is not free.

If someone says they hate you and want to kill your family, and you avoid them as a result, is that free speech? Yes - no significant number of people would say it is not. So here, despite a consequence, speech is free.

Some people connect free speech specifically with prior restraint. But prior restraint is also purely about consequences: if the government bans your book, what that actually means is that anyone distributing your book will be punished, and that's a consequence.

Some people connect free speech specifically with government action. But if a tech monopoly deletes its enemies from the internet, is that free speech? I would say it is not.

It's meaningless to be for or against free speech in some binary sense. What you can have is an opinion about the mapping from speech to consequences. You might think that speech should map to lighter consequences than it does at the moment across all speech, or to heavier consequences, for for some kinds of speech to be lighter and some heavier.

[1] Idi Amin is reputed to have said "There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech."

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't think you should be downvoted. As long as you express something in a civil way, you should be able to do it without repercussion. And you did.

Thanks. > As long as you express something in a civil way, you should be able to do it without repercussion. To get back the original topic of the thread: an increasing problem in our workplaces is that lots of people don't think this way. And maybe I'm wrong, but the impression I get is that those people are overwhemingly of a particular political persuasion. It's not even "left wing" but a specific type of ultra-le…

I agree, and this is kinda new but to be expected.

For a long time some minorities were particularly silenced by our societal systems. If you were a foss advocate, vegan, ecologist, feminist, LGBT aware, what have you, in the 90', you were ridiculed and you didn't have a voice.

Now the table have turned, and the pendulum is balancing to the other extreme: those who were frustrated 20 years ago now created an anger culture out of it that they express loudly. I understand were they come from.

It will go back to balance, but things take time to stabilize. In the meantime, those who had a point of view that were common in the 90' now are considered bad people by default.

I don't think this is the right move, but I understand the process.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#278
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of white armed men shot by police in 2019 was, according to the Washington Post database[1], between 388 and 398. The number of white unarmed men shot by police in 2019 was 26. According to this source, the number of black unarmed men shot by police in 2019 was not 13, but 12. The number of armed black men shot by police was 240, possibly 241. 1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic…

This is why spouting stats to make a point is dangerous, murky water. Tread carefully. Stats can give us quantitative views but give no opinion on the qualitative view.

I agree - interpretation is super important. The above is a good example; someone who isn’t paying attention might not take into account that there are 5-6x the number of white vs black people in the US, which puts a very different spin on the raw figures.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#280

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense

This is modern anti-culture. It's a climate where "opinions" matter more than knowledge and consumerism matters more than democracy.

There are many employers. I am an employee, but I am first and foremost a citizen in a Democracy... If I have the courage to defend it and the will to learn/educate.

An educational system worth the title should provide understanding of society and democracy.

Post reply on HN