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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#451

Post by zxzax »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #408
tstrimple wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. It's not hyperbole or an exaggeration. We did have a rally with a bunch of white nationalists exercising their "free speech" to chant "The Jews will not replace us" and they ended up murdering someone there. We had a National Security Advisor to the President of the United States promoting replacement theory. There a…

I'll bite. It's because the labels themselves have become diluted to have any real meaning. Yes, there are white nationalists who show up to rallies waving Nazi flags. But it's also totally normal to hear people refer to "white supremacy" with regard to SATs[1]. So there really is a diminishing return on calling things racist, and that's probably what most people are "scoffing" at. [1] https://www.tcpress.com/blog/di…

I think you're just illustrating the point. It's okay to address issues with racial bias in SAT questions. Those things can still be racist (maybe not even intentionally so) and worth addressing despite there being worse racism somewhere else. We don't have to ignore that, it's not getting diluted because there are neo nazis that exist somewhere else.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#452

Post by [deleted] »

gameswithgo wrote: post #440
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

Whether there is legitimate fear of reprisal or not, work is not a good place to talk politics, religion, or any other topic that gets people emotional. Unless of course topic is relevant to your work!

[deleted]

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#453

Post by justaman »

switch007 wrote: post #186
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense. This resonates deeply. I'm at the point where "I'm entitled to my opinion!" is a great signal to change the topic, never to return to the topic of politics with that person ever again

When someone comes at me with "I'm entitled to my opinion!" I reply, "You're entitled to your INFORMED opinion!".

I think since around 2008 with the rise of social media, so much of one's ego has been made public. More so than ever before. Its as if everyone is a public figure. Because of this, more people are incapable of accepting that they may be wrong, underinformed, or simply misinformed.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#454

Post by creata »

nostromo wrote: post #433
Loughla wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to get too far into a debate about this, as we're well off the path of the article now, but I'm genuinely not sure if you've thought of this. Your argument: >the discrepancy comes from the types of jobs that men and women are in. only comes down to just being a moving the goal posts sort of thing from disparity in pay to disparity in expectation and opportunity for young men versus women. It's not a compelling ar…

> it points to a theory that societal norms serve to re-enforce the expectation of taking jobs in lower paying fields on women versus men. That’s one theory. Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions.

> Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions.

That's not a theory, that's just restating the question! Why is the distribution the way it is, and should we make efforts to change it?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#455

Post by namelessoracle »

nraynaud wrote: post #220

Remember that the conservative cancel culture uses anti-terror tools : secret lists, administrative persecutions, and other sneaky means. Do not believe that cancel culture is a left leaning trope.

Except that I remember the left looking askance at those tactics. Decrying them as immoral and wrong and a bad thing. Yet when political and cultural power shifted to the left what happened? They did the same things. What this conveys to me is that there were never any principals or morals in play. It was all an exercise in power. Those without power posturing until it was their turn and then doing the exact same kind of things.

I think thats what secretly terrifies people the most about the equity types, the complete lack of belief that they believe anything they say. And that the ultimate result will be that some of those actors feel it's their turn to conduct what they say are injustices. That is how the wheel of history has almost always played out. It feels like a real lack of first principles when it comes to equity politics. Racism is bad, but racism we do is good. Oh what we do isn't racism because we changed the definition of racism to not include what we are doing at the moment. Oh we PROMISE we wont change it again when we have all the power. Pinky swear.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#456

Post by justaman »

xupybd wrote: post #305
Closi wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that might be a signal that you have already gone too far into the convo too!

It's a shame if that's the case some of my favorite discussions have been with people tht disagree with me. I hope we haven't lost the ability to have a disagreement and remain friends.

I think its precisely those who can disagree and remain friends that are the people worth maintaining a friendship with. All others are a lower class of acquaintance.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#457

Post by iso1210 »

jjbinx007 wrote: post #188
iso1210 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"right leaning" is a minority in the UK, and if you exclude those who've retired it's a small minority. Minorities tend to be more accepting of speech that goes against the majority view.

We've not had a Labour government in the UK for 11 years and counting.

Showing just how unrepresentitive our electoral system is. The combined Tory/Brexit/DUP vote was about 43% in 2019, a minority.

Ashcroft and Ipsos confirm that older people were more likely to vote tory, with >50% only in the over 65 range.

If you're a HN poster you're likely in a workplace with

1) Under 45s, certainly under 65s

2) ABC1

3) University education

All of those are 3 indicators of low 'right wing' (defined as voting Tory or whatever Farage's party is) support, so it's not surprising most people in the workplace of the average HN poster vote not-tory.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#458

Post by vixen99 »

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #329
jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

If you hire women, you're acting politically. And if you don't hire women, you're acting politically. Pretending that you're not political is the comfort of being in a position where those politics don't effect you.

No, you choose to interpret it as such. Maybe it was only women who applied or a man would be utterly useless in the job for physical reasons or . . .

Of course you can put a gloss on anything someone says but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a substantive contribution to the actual circumstances which apply for that time and place.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#459

Post by Loughla »

giantg2 wrote: post #445
Loughla wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to get too far into a debate about this, as we're well off the path of the article now, but I'm genuinely not sure if you've thought of this. Your argument: >the discrepancy comes from the types of jobs that men and women are in. only comes down to just being a moving the goal posts sort of thing from disparity in pay to disparity in expectation and opportunity for young men versus women. It's not a compelling ar…

This is basically my point. If you have a srated goal of getting to 1.00 v 1.00 with that metric and focus on the individuals in the same jobs, then you will never get there. It's a mismatch between policy and intent. Using the goal post analogy, there taking their shots at the sideline without realizing where the goal really is. The posts haven't moved, they just see a mirage in another place. "...points to a theory…

I'm afraid you've missed my point. Obviously no one is forcing individual people into one career or another. Never in my life has someone held a gun to my head and said, "pick a job in education, because I say so."

But, society as a whole, places expectations on some groups, but not others. Whether those expectations are to be the caregiver or big tough man who provides for the family. Therefore, career choice, and the pay outcomes, are not truly based on merit or ability, and can be controlled by unfair external factors. Further, what this means is that the playing field is not level. Some people will have advantages, just because of how they were born - which is the issue we started with.

Also - while I applaud you and your wife's position, you are confusing anecdotal data with evidence. It does tell a story, absolutely, but it proves nothing by itself.

>The analysis showed that the main part of that was because they were choosing jobs based on societal benefit rather than just pay.

Why do you think that would be the case? Why do you believe one subset of students would choose those careers in larger numbers than other groups?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#460

Post by giantg2 »

Loughla wrote: post #450
nostromo wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it points to a theory that societal norms serve to re-enforce the expectation of taking jobs in lower paying fields on women versus men. That’s one theory. Another is that women and men in the aggregate don’t choose the same careers in exactly even proportions.

Obviously that is the case. It would be startling if adults chose careers in exactly even proportions, regardless of their gender, age, ethnicity, or whatever. BUT, based on human developmental theory and how people make decisions, no choice is truly random. Therefore, there must be a reason for those choices. Your theory offers no explanation other than random chance, from what I can tell. Identifying inputs and out…

I think the main issue was with the "expectation" part. It carries an insinuation of being forced, or socially shunned, etc. There are choices being made, and choices aren't random. I don't really see expectations that a woman take a lower paying job playing into that very much. I can see more pressure on the other side - like for the man to pay for everything on dates, support their family, etc, with the resulting less pressure on the other side allowing the choice of work that is fulfilling in other ways (societal benefit, fun, less stress, flexibility). Even these roles are choices. A man could choose not to pay for dates, be a stay at home dad, etc. When it come mate selection, there is generally more pressure on the male than the female.
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