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Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

reuters.com

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Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#81

Post by pc86 »

geofft wrote: post #71
apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

It's always struck me as weird that unions in the US exclude management, even when "management" is defined as "someone getting paid $2 more per hour to train and schedule workers." The interests of a Wal-Mart bakery manager and other bakery workers are generally closely aligned, so Mr. Walton has something of a point there. And frankly the same is true of knowledge work - the interests of someone like me who's a seni…

You have to draw the line somewhere though, and I don't think it's as clear-cut as you're making it sound. I'm sure I could find someone who is a director or even VP but is still very close to the "laborer" side of things, especially in tech. Likewise, there are plenty of low-level front line managers with dozens of reports who have no idea what they do day-to-day. It's easy to separate the Waltons from the person icing a cake in a bakery because they're dozens of reports apart. But it's much harder to actually put that line between two individual people at any level of the organization.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#82

Post by offtop5 »

refurb wrote: post #66
offtop5 wrote: post #50

Isn't it a completely rational fear that Amazon would just fire most employees if they unionize against Amazon's wishes. Even if this isn't exactly legal, it would take years to sort it out in court. Rent's due Monday, no one has time to wait for justice to prevail

Why do you think it would take years? The NLRB has been known to interject during strikes when either side is breaking the law. It’s not like they can’t act quickly.

Rent's still due Monday.

Hypothetically let's say Amazon is found to be at fault, even if action is taken your still out of work. I consider myself fairly educated, and I still have no idea what remedies exist if Amazon was to close a warehouse due to unionization. For working class people who are more concerned about paying their bills, voting for a union sounds like a very risky proposition. There's a very good chance Amazon would find a legal trick to either lay off a significant numbers of their staff, or convert some workers to being tempts

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#83

Post by knute »

ceejayoz wrote: post #53
apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

Are Walmart "associates" particularly well off as a result?

I think it's important to remember that Sam Walton died in 1992, and the Walmart of today has very little in common with the Wal-Mart of 1992.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#84

Post by eventualhorizon »

ceejayoz wrote: post #53
apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

Are Walmart "associates" particularly well off as a result?

Walmart was a very different company under Sam Walton. Sam tried to visit every store once a year. When he got there he would throw the managers out and talk with the employees to find whether or not the managers were doing their jobs. He also believed in empowering the employees. Employees were responsible for particular sections of the store and had access to sales and inventory data and made decisions about how the section was run. In short Mr. Walton felt that the line employees were the most important people in the organization and treated them accordingly.

This of course did not survive after he passed and Walmart employees are not well off today. The quote about Unions above does seem to fit his philosophy but rings hollow with the changes that occurred after his death.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#85

Post by Miner49er »

rovr138 wrote: post #65
Miner49er wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so, you can cancel any time, but even with private insurance, I don't think you can enroll anytime.

I honestly haven’t had private insurance in maybe 10 years so I don’t know if and how things may have changed. And timing may also have simply worked out when I did. What’s horrible is, imagine being let go or quitting your job, not being able to afford COBRA (or whatever it’s called now) and then not even being able to signup for private insurance due to open enrollment period not lining up. . I follow some people i…

Losing your insurance by losing your job is one of those major life events that qualifies a person for a "special enrollment period" where they can enroll, I think.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#86

Post by rovr138 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #75
rovr138 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s also a VERY high premium AND deductible. Not saying it’s not out there, but they both are high.

Here in upstate New York, my insurer's Bronze plans run about $1100/month for a family ( https://myportal.dfs.ny.gov/documents/538523/9578747/Excellu... ). That gets you a $10k family deductible, and a $13,100 max out-of-pocket. https://www.nyhealthinsurer.com/insurance/pdfs/plans/1319 I pay $2,200 a month for a family Platinum plan, in order to get $0 deductible and $4k/year max OOP. The true cost of healthcare is m…

I know it gets high. I pay $700 something for my wife and I (the vast majority of that is including my wife).

My main issue, and why I commented, it’s because they put a high monthly premium and a high deductible and usually when one’s goes up, the other one goes down.

It’s framed as trying to explain it for someone outside of the US and I think it makes a poor job because it doesn’t explain that they picked máximums and didn’t explain how they usually relate and interact with each other.

> For many families the monthly premiums could run over a thousand dollars, and the deductible could be $15,000

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#87

Post by ceejayoz »

rovr138 wrote: post #86
ceejayoz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in upstate New York, my insurer's Bronze plans run about $1100/month for a family ( https://myportal.dfs.ny.gov/documents/538523/9578747/Excellu... ). That gets you a $10k family deductible, and a $13,100 max out-of-pocket. https://www.nyhealthinsurer.com/insurance/pdfs/plans/1319 I pay $2,200 a month for a family Platinum plan, in order to get $0 deductible and $4k/year max OOP. The true cost of healthcare is m…

I know it gets high. I pay $700 something for my wife and I (the vast majority of that is including my wife). My main issue, and why I commented, it’s because they put a high monthly premium and a high deductible and usually when one’s goes up, the other one goes down. It’s framed as trying to explain it for someone outside of the US and I think it makes a poor job because it doesn’t explain that they picked máximums…

I'm pointing out that this:

> That’s also a VERY high premium AND deductible.

isn't true, at least in my area.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#88

Post by pydry »

eventualhorizon wrote: post #84
ceejayoz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Walmart "associates" particularly well off as a result?

Walmart was a very different company under Sam Walton. Sam tried to visit every store once a year. When he got there he would throw the managers out and talk with the employees to find whether or not the managers were doing their jobs. He also believed in empowering the employees. Employees were responsible for particular sections of the store and had access to sales and inventory data and made decisions about how th…

Computerization of stock control and sales made trusting and empowering the employees much less necessary.

I suspect his attitude would not have lasted even if he had survived.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#89

Post by pydry »

pc86 wrote: post #81
geofft wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always struck me as weird that unions in the US exclude management, even when "management" is defined as "someone getting paid $2 more per hour to train and schedule workers." The interests of a Wal-Mart bakery manager and other bakery workers are generally closely aligned, so Mr. Walton has something of a point there. And frankly the same is true of knowledge work - the interests of someone like me who's a seni…

You have to draw the line somewhere though, and I don't think it's as clear-cut as you're making it sound. I'm sure I could find someone who is a director or even VP but is still very close to the "laborer" side of things, especially in tech. Likewise, there are plenty of low-level front line managers with dozens of reports who have no idea what they do day-to-day. It's easy to separate the Waltons from the person ic…

Usually the line is drawn at "do they have the power to hire and fire?"

VP is unlikely to be unable to hire and fire but I suppose it's possible for "technical fellows" and the like.

Re: Union's evidence in Amazon vote 'could be grounds for overturning election'

#90

Post by damagednoob »

emptysongglass wrote: post #79
apples_oranges wrote: post #48

I just finished Sam Walton's Book "Made in America". It's about Walmart, but I heard somewhere it's required reading for all Amazon managers. Anyway, it's a fantastic book, and there's something about their Anti-Union stance in it: "I have always believed strongly that we don’t need unions at Wal-Mart. Theoretically, I understand the argument that unions try to make, that the associates need someone to represent them…

I want to go after the presumption that representation foments division. It's an American-made idea and it's not a good one. Take it out and throw it in the bin. Denmark has two thirds of its workforce under a union. I'm not hostile with my employers and I don't need my union representing me 99 percent of the time. If I have a problem I talk directly to my managers like a {woman, man, transperson}. It's only when my…

> It's an American-made idea and it's not a good one. Take it out and throw it in the bin.

Actually, I think your comment belongs in the bin. No one was making generalisations until you stepped in. Denmark may be this unionised Utopia that everyone can learn from (I doubt it) but unions in other countries (e.g. UK, South Africa) can exhibit these counter-productive behaviours as described.

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