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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#191

Post by africanboy »

arka2147483647 wrote: post #107
pasabagi wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. By who? Rosa Luxembourg, for example, was a free speech fundamentalist, and she is still far left of many left wingers today. Free speech is a value that is often adopted, nuanced, and discarded by political projects from all over the spectrum - and it's naive to think that one side of the spectrum has a monopoly on its d…

In princible, the progressive left supports free speach. In practice, disagreement is met with explanations and accusations of ”shifting overton window”, ”new normal” and ”normalization”. Meaning that, Yes, you do have the right of free speach, but No, you should not be saying the wrong things.

> Meaning that, Yes, you do have the right of free speach, but No, you should not be saying the wrong things.

Yes. Exactly.

What's the problem with that?

Yes, you have the right to do what you want, but No, you should not do the wrong things.

Have you the right to drive?

Yes.

Have you the right to run over pedestrians?

No.

It's simply how societies work.

freedom starts where ignorance ends

the freedom of one ends where the right of another begins.

and hundreds other similar quotes...

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#192

Post by BiteCode_dev »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #118
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

I would say that this is a failure of philosophy in political leadership. Not that philosophy was ever paramount in politics, but it was at least expected in the highest classes. Everything devolves into tribalism without philosophy. It looks like people are discoursing, but they are really just signalling.

> It looks like people are discoursing, but they are really just signalling.

I was looking to put words on my feeling about this, and you did it perfectly.

I was wondering why suddenly so many people voiced the same engaged opinion, while I know for having discussed with them in private settings that they don't think deeply about society.

Now I realize that's because they want to look like they belong to a certain kind of people. It's not about ideas. It's about tribes.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#193

Post by ForHackernews »

msg3 wrote: post #180
efaref wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting it to legal consequences is not enough. There are also physical and psychological safety consequences that are relevant. You're not, for example, free to speak your mind if expressing wrongthink will result in a punch to the face. In the context of a workplace (being the topic of this post, after all), one such consequence is the loss of your job. Something that is very real these days, with so-called activi…

Punching people in the face is illegal regardless of the reason - I don't really see how that's relevant? Are you really saying that it should be impossible for someone to lose their job over what they say? If someone, for example, threatened to kill a co-worker, you don't think they should be fired? I appreciate that this is an extreme example, but when we talk about rights, don't we have to cover all examples of sp…

> you don't have a right to a job.

In non-America places (or in the few remaining unionised workplaces in America) you typically have some right to due process, and you can't just be terminated on a whim because you said something the boss didn't like.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#194

Post by concordDance »

iso1210 wrote: post #171
Thorentis wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with, shall we say, radically progressive views, are more than comfortable to share them openly in the staff rooms, kitchens, before and after meetings, etc. without anybody contending with them. Anybody with more centrist, or God forbid conservative views, saves them for the pub afterwards or for their private gatherings. The Overton window seems to shift weekly.

Could you point to some research on this, specifically ones that account for the jobs where this happens (HN readers are likely in jobs that attract more middle class and higher education people, who are overwhelmingly left of the current UK median - go to a taxi driver mess room and compare conversations) and provide examples of the overton window shifting (yes, the rise of farage and ukip shifted it significantly i…

The overton window has shifted to the left on many issues. E.g. trans rights

In my own workplace the overton window shifted notably left in gender issues in the last decade.

You make a good point about hn people not being representative though.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#195

Post by BiteCode_dev »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #182
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense. This is so true. I've seen polling showing that large numbers of people believe that the number of unarmed black men fatally shot by American police every year is in the "thousands" or even "tens of thousands". And the further to the left the media people consume, the higher they're likely to believe the number is. The ac…

I upvoted you because I don't think you should be downvoted for expressing your opinion.

But I also think we should wonder: how many white armed men were killed?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#196

Post by frereubu »

Neil44 wrote: post #126
ajkjk wrote: post #3

I don't trust this article. The phrase "Losing viewpoint diversity" is of course crafted to make it sound like a chilling trend. Pretty clear what they want you to think about it. But if you drill into what that's referring to, whether you think it's a bad thing is entirely up to what you think of how the viewpoints are changing. "Fewer racists than ever" also maps to "less viewpoint diversity" but is totally a good…

You’ve gone straight to the implication that everyone who doesn’t want to hear politics from the noisy few is racist, despite the article not mentioning specifics. This is exactly the kind of chilling effect it’s about. I.e. “You’re not shouting as loud as us, you must be one of THEM”

I think that's an unfair characterisation. I read it as the commenter using racism purely as an example where reduced diversity of opinion towards no racism is a good thing, not saying that all opponents of diversity are racist.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#197

Post by textgel »

twoslide wrote: post #179
jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

I'm not sure there is such a thing as an "apolitical space" - it is kind of like trying to remain stationary on a moving train. Even if you don't discss contentious issues, political parties, etc, you are still part of social and economic systems premised on political views. For example, one might say they don't talk about climate change/sexism/racism in the work place and therefore it is apolitical, but to another v…

Which hilariously is leading to the pushback.

People were willing to live and let live when the psychos were confined to gender theory classes and unsuccessful bookshops but now that they are so prevalent and demanding that people indulge their delusions every waking second it seems people are starting to get sick of it.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#198

Post by joe_91 »

jb775 wrote: post #156
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> how willingly other people bring up politically sensitive issues in the workplace I'd say I'm a mix of conservative/Libertarian and this kind of blows my mind over the past few years. It seems like I constantly hear people on the left openly voicing their political opinions around crowds of people, and always speak in a way that they genuinely believe everyone around them agrees....and often have a condescending wa…

Another point I think is relevant is that I feel many solutions that you've described are easy to understand, quick fixes. In a world that is growing more and more complicated I think people are more prone to gravitate towards the simple.

Another reason, in my opinion for the leftist narrative being so captivating at the moment is that people are delaying adulthood, kids, family more and more. When you are young, or have little, true life experience you don't see why the simple solutions to help all these people wouldn't work. You haven't been in the trenches of life to realise that compromise is needed and that we don't always understand the 2nd or 3rd order effects that our actions will have.

Again all this is my own personal experience but I think it has some bearing on todays political minefield.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#199

Post by secondcoming »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #183
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engaging in real-life political discussions in the current climate is basically all risk, zero reward.

Only if you have "incorrect" opinions.

And of course a 'correct' opinion today might be 'incorrect' tomorrow and since you've previously expressed the 'now incorrect' opinion you can be in trouble.

Just delete your Twitter account and say nothing to anyone about anything, especially in the workplace.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#200

Post by KMag »

raffraffraff wrote: post #178
raffraffraff wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fheyly agree that we should have humility in our policies, but should also be aware that all "progress" is not positive. In fact, how is progress even defined in this case? Is all change progressive? Or is change that younger people agree with automatically positive? At some point before the Spanish Inquisition, one could have argued that this new idea of burning witches was "progress" because it reduced the evil i…

I love spotting predictive text mistakes after the edit timeout expires :/ WTF is "fheyly"?

> WTF is "fheyly"?

It's the secret love child of "fully" and "covfefe".

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