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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#141

Post by shkkmo »

evgen wrote: post #123
shkkmo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polarization has nothing to do with the craziness of ideas, but the lack of a middle ground. Polarization has to do with the clustering of beliefs. If attending BLM protests makes you less likely to attend pro-life protests, that is polarization. The strength of that correlation is the amount of polarization. Acceptance of Inter-racial marriage is a topic that was once far more polarized. That depolarization is exact…

Interracial marriage did not just slowly creep in until it was considered acceptable. It had to fight its way into the conversation, then have champions who were willing to take great risks and accept painful consequences for promoting these polarizing beliefs. 'Depolarization' on this subject is not something that just happened, nor it an effective strategy for change. What happened is that one side LOST and their v…

You seem to mean something entirely different by polarization and depolarization.

As long as the issue is polarized, then it gains network support from the issues with which it is polarized. That process of standardization that you describe as "winning" happened because the issue became decoupled from stances on other issues and was no longer predictive of other views.

To put this in more concrete terms, I am not saying that you should not challenge racism and racists. I am saying that in pursuit of that goal you should actively push back on assuming someone is racist because of their political views.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#142

Post by pjc50 »

goalieca wrote: post #60
jim-jim-jim wrote: post #30

I'm neither old nor experienced enough to back this with even anecdotal evidence, but I can't imagine this is a new development; surely most workplaces have always been hostile to viewpoints at odds with contemporary business norms. It's just the norms themselves that have changed during the shift to a globalized economy that favors knowledge work. Despite the "progressive activist" moniker applied in the article and…

I remember things about a generation ago. It wasn’t always rosy; some unacceptable things were causally said. But, there seemed to be less hate for the other team. We seem to live in a hyper-polarized world exemplified by the shift in late night talk shows where you can no longer escape politics. Both teams are playing to win and there is never any rest.

I just about remember the Miner's Strike, and IRA bombs going off in London. Let's not de-polarise the past in our memories.

What has changed is the way dishonesty has spread up the media and political system.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#143

Post by raffraffraff »

KMag wrote: post #63
guythedudebro wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace interracial marriage with something like abolish the police. Is the ethical/sane choice still clear cut?

More importantly, most of us hold moral judgements that our grandchildren will find horrifying, and it's a tautology that we're unable to see our moral blind spots (or have a good guess where they are). I'm happily in an interracial marriage, but I'm not sure that I would have been in favor of (or even neutral toward) interracial marriage had I been a product of the culture a century earlier. I'm very glad we've made…

I fheyly agree that we should have humility in our policies, but should also be aware that all "progress" is not positive. In fact, how is progress even defined in this case? Is all change progressive? Or is change that younger people agree with automatically positive? At some point before the Spanish Inquisition, one could have argued that this new idea of burning witches was "progress" because it reduced the evil in the world. Back in 1970s Iran, one could have argued that a law that forced women to cover their bodies from head to toe to stop tempting men into sin, as "progressive".

In my own view, which I'm always willing to debate (and lose), a change isn't progressive if it cannot argue it's point using logic. If it silences dissent using threats of ostracism, job loss or ban from some ubiquitous online platform, it's not progress. If it presumes itself to be morally right without arguing it's case, and is happy to shut down any disagreement as (some)phobia, then it's not progress. If it denies science, it's not progress. And if it goes further than demand silence from dissenters, and actually demand that everyone agree (wear the colours, add the right signals to the Twitter bio, "you're with us or against us"), then it's not just "not progressive", it's regressive. It's dogmatic. It's a church full of people all changing a creed whether or not try believe.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#144

Post by pjc50 »

guythedudebro wrote: post #45
jeffbee wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason I always look skeptically on other research about "polarization". The trend tends to be that in the past it was common for otherwise-sane people to advocate crazy stuff like bans on interracial marriage. Now the only people who are against interracial marriage are straight-ticket crazy people, and this sorting of society is superficially "polarization" but I can't find the negative in it, because…

Replace interracial marriage with something like abolish the police. Is the ethical/sane choice still clear cut?

Reminder that the UK did have to abolish (and reconstitute) a police force in order to end its civil war in 2001, and still has ongoing litigation about the legality of troops shooting civilians in the streets.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#145

Post by kaoD »

samsari wrote: post #114
arka2147483647 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In princible, the progressive left supports free speach. In practice, disagreement is met with explanations and accusations of ”shifting overton window”, ”new normal” and ”normalization”. Meaning that, Yes, you do have the right of free speach, but No, you should not be saying the wrong things.

Just because I support your right to say it doesn't mean I have to celebrate what you say, or why you said it.

But it doesn't mean you have to mobilize an angry mob to ruin his career.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#146

Post by lazyasciiart »

klyrs wrote: post #92
lindy2021 wrote: post #28

We'll see more companies go the way of Coinbase and Basecamp. Companies sidetracked with politics will bleed the apolitical.

No, the apolitical don't feel the need to discuss politics at work; they'll get on just fine. It's the political who will leave places they disagree with, accelerating polarization.

Plenty of people (from any point on the spectrum) identify as apolitical because they think their beliefs about the world are the neutral standard. They don't feel the need to discuss politics, but in their mind that doesn't cover things like that crazy story on the news about parents who were letting their daughter pretend to be a boy, or mentioning that their sister's wife is visiting.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#147

Post by msg3 »

efaref wrote: post #127
samsari wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I support your right to say it doesn't mean I have to celebrate what you say, or why you said it.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here.

You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought?

To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink.

There is perhaps a separate discussion to be had about the sort of society we want to live in - do we want to promote open discussion, even if it can be divisive? But I don't think it's really a rights issue unless the consequences progress from social / economic to legal.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#148

Post by jl6 »

jollybean wrote: post #130
jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

I think this is missing the thrust of the issue which is that is, for some groups, certain kinds of politics invariably involve work and are a moral imperative. If this were about issues likee 'big vs. small government' then it wouldn't be a problem. But it's about political issues like 'diversity in the workplace' and 'Corporate support for Social Justice' (such as BLM) - as the big Elephant in the Room subject. So…

It’s a valid point that some political issues are workplace-oriented, but in my organization they manifest as HR policies and are not up for personal debate round the water cooler.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#149

Post by Thlom »

flukus wrote: post #67
lindy2021 wrote: post #28

We'll see more companies go the way of Coinbase and Basecamp. Companies sidetracked with politics will bleed the apolitical.

I don't understand what you mean by "go the way", most places I've worked it is the way and always has been. Keeping politics and religion out of the workplace is just called "being professional". Seems like we're just rediscovering why things are that way.

Just remember that what is politics is also politics. Ideology can be found in everything, including what you consider "being professional".

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#150

Post by crummy »

phroobster wrote: post #96

I am so tired of constantly hearing about politics at my workplace. Politics have already made their way into the tv shows, music, video games, and online forums that I enjoy. At least let me disconnect from that outrage-fuel at work. It also affects team cohesion. I can easily collaborate with just about anyone when I don’t know their political beliefs. As soon as I find out someone holds opposing views on a topic I…

Were your TV shows, video games, etc really lacking in politics before? Or was it just a different kind of politics? (Honest question.)
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