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My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

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Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#721

Post by JamesBarney »

Pfhreak wrote: post #718
JamesBarney wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying no. I've had plenty of sex I wasn't super enthusiastic about but I wouldn't consider any of those exes rapists because I didn't say no. When you're in a relationship for years not all of the sex is super enthusiastic. There were times when I had sex because I didn't want to hurt their feelings or they traveled a distance to see me. And I'm sure there were times when my partner wasn't that in the mood and h…

The problem I see with your definition of "Not saying no." is that it leaves a lot of ambiguity and requires a lot of caveats. An unconscious person can't say no, but no one would agree they are consenting. What about someone intoxicated or under the influence? What about someone who is scared? Where does "I'd rather not", or "If I have to" fit? (Both of those seem to imply not consenting to me.) Whereas a yes provid…

The problem with defining consensual sex as both parties saying yes explicitly and unambiguously is it ignores the world around us. An enormous amount of sex and sexual acts that are happening today without explicit affirmative verbal consent. Your definition classifies all of those sex acts as non-consensual. Should we prosecute people for rape? I imagine almost everyone has had at least one sexual act where they did not explicitly ask their partner if they wanted to have sex. This would make almost everyone a rapist.

Should we be teaching people to just lay their quietly if a sexual encounter is starting they don't want to be a part of and hopefully the other party will ask them for their consent at some point?

> I've moved to asking, "Can I kiss you?" or "Can I hug you?" before making a move like that. Simple, brief, and once you have an answer you forget it was even asked.

Can I kiss you, can I touch your thigh, I can tough your boob over the shirt, can I tough your genitals over the pants, you can touch my genital under my pants but over my underwear. If each sexual escalation requires consent that's a lot of question asking and responses for a typical sex act. And maybe that how the world should work, but it's definitely not how the world is working right now.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#722

Post by darig »

JPKab wrote: post #204
Elof wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like your brother can probably sue for damages if this is the whole story

He was told his case was legitimate, but the cost was too much for him to afford. Also, large corporations have massive legal teams. The narrative that is widely believed is that "the cost of making an accusation is so high that nobody would do it, so automatically believe accusers" and they pretend that there is no cost to being accused. It's an oversimplification and ignores the game theory involved in these things…

You're ignoring the game theory of abusers exploiting the cost of making an accusation such that they never get accused.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#723

Post by voces »

GavinMcG wrote: post #700
voces wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the rational decision not to risk her safety or even her life by escalating a fight she likely couldn't win The rational decision is to get the hell out of there, then call her dad or a friend. Giving in without a fight to what you consider to be rape by a Scala programmer is the poorest decision you could ever make, and I shudder to think any of my loved ones would be panicked enough to even entertain it. > the si…

You should talk to more women in your life about their experiences. Every suggestion you're making here is premised on priors from your experience as a man that do not hold true for many or most women. You say she should get out and call her dad or a friend. Yet your own reaction is one of questioning her experience and shaming her for "a long chain of bad decisions to end up drunk on your own wine, in a foreign coun…

Experience as a father of daughters, raised by a single mom. But set that aside, as your experience as a man cancels it out.

You seem to view women as weak victims. Your suggestion she underwent the rape as a rational decision, so she did not have to escalate a fight she would likely lose, is downright horrific to me. Maybe 100-200 years ago, a woman had her life lived to that degree, but these days they are equals.

Majority of rapists will desist if you put up a fight. You don't need to be physically stronger, to grab a pinky finger and twist it to break it. Put your thumb in his eye, and he won't be in the mood for anything. If he gets aggressive and physical after that, run to the police, and have him arrested for attempted rape and physical assault.

Not only can my loved ones and their friends trust me to call me any time, for any thing, they have actually done so. Locking yourself in the toilet is not some alpha-male fantasy. It is one of the safest places to be at a party. I'll come pick you up, and not ask any questions.

Yes, it was a long string of very bad decisions. To call anyone pointing that out "victim-shaming", is not helping. I do think that what a woman wears at night has direct influence on the risk she runs. Don't try to turn that into "she was asking for it", but also don't blame the rest of the world when you are responsible for your own safety.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#724

Post by grammarnazzzi »

stadium wrote: post #719
grammarnazzzi wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence of what? I re-read the article to try to figure out what this "specific case" actually might be. Two people engaged in a consensual physical relations. She was not happy with the outcome. At the time, she "did not blame him for what happened, and didn't think those behaviors were problematic at the time. ... I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all…

> user: grammarnazzzi > created: February 23, 2017 > karma: 17 You really came out of the woodwork to defend this guy and shame the accuser. Zero posts in months then a flurry here. Gross.

I'm not defending the guy. I'm defending the rule of law and due process.

An unsubstantiated accusation should not result in someone's life being ruined.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#725

Post by grammarnazzzi »

stadium wrote: post #719
grammarnazzzi wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence of what? I re-read the article to try to figure out what this "specific case" actually might be. Two people engaged in a consensual physical relations. She was not happy with the outcome. At the time, she "did not blame him for what happened, and didn't think those behaviors were problematic at the time. ... I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all…

> user: grammarnazzzi > created: February 23, 2017 > karma: 17 You really came out of the woodwork to defend this guy and shame the accuser. Zero posts in months then a flurry here. Gross.

I don't see how my posting history is relevant to the topic.

It seems like you are resorting to an ad hominem attack to discredit an opinion you don't like.

You are using cancel-culture tactics to defend cancel-culture itself.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#726

Post by colecut »

FireBeyond wrote: post #520
colecut wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When do they happen, and why did they happen? Edit: since I wasn't clear, I am looking for examples of when this has happened to you, or your friend, or anyone that you have heard of... Edit 2: also by "pretty much" does not happen, I don't mean never happens. But I think the rate at which it happens is probably a rounding error, and I think a lot of people would rather just say "oh well they could be lying" before e…

https://reason.com/2018/10/17/seneca-valley-mean-girls-false... https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2018/10/15/A...

Both of these cases were high school situations, a typically traumatizing environment, with immature teenaged people.

I'm sorry, I do not see the same likelihood of collusion in this case of intelligent women who had no relation to each other. I am not saying it is impossible, but I have a hard time seeing it.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#727

Post by GavinMcG »

voces wrote: post #723
GavinMcG wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should talk to more women in your life about their experiences. Every suggestion you're making here is premised on priors from your experience as a man that do not hold true for many or most women. You say she should get out and call her dad or a friend. Yet your own reaction is one of questioning her experience and shaming her for "a long chain of bad decisions to end up drunk on your own wine, in a foreign coun…

Experience as a father of daughters, raised by a single mom. But set that aside, as your experience as a man cancels it out. You seem to view women as weak victims. Your suggestion she underwent the rape as a rational decision, so she did not have to escalate a fight she would likely lose, is downright horrific to me. Maybe 100-200 years ago, a woman had her life lived to that degree, but these days they are equals.…

> these days they are equals

This is laughable and just reinforces what I'm saying: you need to listen to more of the women in your life about their actual experiences, not what you imagine them to be. I am not invoking my experience as a man. I am invoking the experiences of the vast majority of women I know. Their experiences are not even close to equal to mine, when it comes to their ease of moving about the world, not to mention their physical safety.

Any person, placed in a situation where they are in danger, can react in a way that isn't necessarily a matter of deciding in the first place. I was pointing out that even where there is a decision to made, it doesn't obviously favor fighting. But your confidence that a victim can fight back ignores what we know about rapes and the fight/flight/freeze stress response. Not reacting is entirely natural and very common, particularly when the situation isn't one that you've trained a habitual response to.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/06/2...

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#728

Post by tester756 »

colecut wrote: post #726
FireBeyond wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://reason.com/2018/10/17/seneca-valley-mean-girls-false... https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2018/10/15/A...

Both of these cases were high school situations, a typically traumatizing environment, with immature teenaged people. I'm sorry, I do not see the same likelihood of collusion in this case of intelligent women who had no relation to each other. I am not saying it is impossible, but I have a hard time seeing it.

"intelligent women"

what makes you think so?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#729

Post by tester756 »

Pfhreak wrote: post #46
mirekrusin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anything about it, but this starts to look a bit like public lynching.

Which part? The part where people are saying they've become aware of several independent, substantiated accusations against Pretty? The part where they state that sexual assault is unacceptable? The part where they demand that Pretty stop this behavior, and that communities put stronger code of conducts in place to specifically call out preying on/sexually assaulting members of that community as unacceptable? Refusin…

>Which part of that is 'a bit like a public lynching'?

We further resolve that:

    We will not support the efforts of any party in the Scala community that provides a platform to Mr. Pretty. That includes, but is not limited to, boycotting events the party organizes and refusing to buy any product or service the party offers.
    We will not attend any conference or user group meeting organized or attended by Mr. Pretty.
    We will not attend any conference or user group meeting that does not have a code of conduct that is both specific (it must not allow predatory sexual advances in professional spaces) and actionable (it must provide a safe and accessible reporting mechanism for people who have been targeted).
    We will not use or promote any software artifacts that are maintained by Mr. Pretty.
I'd rather avoid believing anything within Scala community until its proven.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#730

Post by tester756 »

ezluckyfree wrote: post #24
mirekrusin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anything about it, but this starts to look a bit like public lynching.

no, a lynching is a murder by a racist mob this is a community realizing that John Pretty is a predator and deciding that they don't want a predator in a position of power frankly, it's weird as hell for you to be confusing those two things

>this is a community realizing that John Pretty is a predator and deciding that they don't want a predator in a position of power

Not really, it seems like cancel culture, did you even read this letter?

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