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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#431

Post by simion314 »

gonehome wrote: post #423
simion314 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but can you take a short pause and parse what you say: "I personally love it how Apple is taking my freedom, I love it so much that I want to force Apple rules on everyone else." The fact you like current Apple rules and you got scared by some FUD should not make you entitled to ask other to stop fighting for more freedom(my family have Android phones and they did not installed any other store, side loaded apps…

You're missing the core value. It's not hacks, it's policy. Apple leverages their power against app devs and for their customers. - IAP, Apple ID, No Tracking, Notification Control, etc. In a world where Apple doesn't have leverage via the store they can't enforce these things. App devs would ship outside of the store and include whatever crap they wanted. This is a worse experience and there is no 'choice' available…

This argument is FUD. Until Epyc games had the courage to complain I could have asked you to name an example and you would not find anything that is not on Google Play with exception of maybe Free Software.

If this is not FUD do you have a source that shows that thousands of poor grandmas that have Android were forced to side load Farmville and if this happened what was the damage (except that some bilionaires made a few less millions)

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#432

Post by gonehome »

berkes wrote: post #263
Gaelan wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing: Apple's exercising market power does bring all sorts of benefits to users. Obvious examples include the new privacy rules they're imposing, in-app purchases allowing any subscriptions to be cancelled with zero hassle. If Apple allowed other app stores, Facebook would almost certainly move to one that let them produce a far more invasive app. And the vast majority of the users will just download Face…

In essence that is arguing that an abusive monopoly (facebook) must be fought with another abusive monopoly (apple).

It's not abusive if it benefits its users.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#433

Post by Spivak »

gonehome wrote: post #247
Spivak wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's still pretty extreme imo when you control the only store and you directly compete with them/undercut them. Regulators don’t (yet I suppose) care about this because of opportunity cost. If I’m making $3/user/mo off your $10 subscription and I decide to enter the market and compete with you at then every user I steal and every user if not for me would have gone with you costs me $3/mo plus cost of providing th…

If Spotify is $10/month and paying $3 to Apple they get $7/month. If Apple enters with Apple Music and charges $10/month - they're undercutting Spotify while charging the same.

You're ignoring opportunity cost which was the whole point here. You didn't say how much Apple was getting.

If Spotify charges $10 and pays Apple $3 then Spotify makes $7 and Apple makes $3.

If Apple enters the market and charges $10 then consider a user that would have otherwise went to Spotify. Spotify makes $0 and Apple makes $10 from the subscription but loses $3 from what they would have been paid from Spotify so Apple makes $7.

Apple has lots of advantages stemming from their control of the platform but "not having to pay the 30% fee" isn't one of them.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#434

Post by gonehome »

simion314 wrote: post #431
gonehome wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the core value. It's not hacks, it's policy. Apple leverages their power against app devs and for their customers. - IAP, Apple ID, No Tracking, Notification Control, etc. In a world where Apple doesn't have leverage via the store they can't enforce these things. App devs would ship outside of the store and include whatever crap they wanted. This is a worse experience and there is no 'choice' available…

This argument is FUD. Until Epyc games had the courage to complain I could have asked you to name an example and you would not find anything that is not on Google Play with exception of maybe Free Software. If this is not FUD do you have a source that shows that thousands of poor grandmas that have Android were forced to side load Farmville and if this happened what was the damage (except that some bilionaires made a…

Android app store doesn't have the same review process or restrictions so it's not really a relevant comparison.

If Google tried to enforce more policy app devs would use other stores/side load.

In hostile countries the google play store is usually not present at all.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#435

Post by simion314 »

gonehome wrote: post #434
simion314 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is FUD. Until Epyc games had the courage to complain I could have asked you to name an example and you would not find anything that is not on Google Play with exception of maybe Free Software. If this is not FUD do you have a source that shows that thousands of poor grandmas that have Android were forced to side load Farmville and if this happened what was the damage (except that some bilionaires made a…

Android app store doesn't have the same review process or restrictions so it's not really a relevant comparison. If Google tried to enforce more policy app devs would use other stores/side load. In hostile countries the google play store is usually not present at all.

>In hostile countries the google play store is usually not present at all

Isn't this a good thing? In countries like China you could force Apple to spy and censor users where Android users can side load applications from trusted sources.

>If Google tried to enforce more policy app devs would use other stores/side load.

What kind of policies ? Any example of such policies? GUI/UX stuff or you mean policies where you can't link to a donate page because Apple wants that sweet tax, I think you are not ready to admit that you are spreading FUD, reality does not match and you are still building a fantasy.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#436

Post by gonehome »

Spivak wrote: post #433
gonehome wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Spotify is $10/month and paying $3 to Apple they get $7/month. If Apple enters with Apple Music and charges $10/month - they're undercutting Spotify while charging the same.

You're ignoring opportunity cost which was the whole point here. You didn't say how much Apple was getting. If Spotify charges $10 and pays Apple $3 then Spotify makes $7 and Apple makes $3. If Apple enters the market and charges $10 then consider a user that would have otherwise went to Spotify. Spotify makes $0 and Apple makes $10 from the subscription but loses $3 from what they would have been paid from Spotify s…

Apple gets $10 or $3 from a user

Spotify gets $7 or $0 from a user

How is this not an advantage?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#437

Post by devwastaken »

emteycz wrote: post #424
devwastaken wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when theres only 2 choices, and effectively only 1 choice depending on your work. The rights of wider market and it's consumers involved are higher. This is precedent that's been set time and again in every other consumer facing industry and it applies just as well here.

Yes, even when there are only 2 choices. No customer has any right, legal or otherwise, for iPhone-the-universal-and-open-computing-device. Not only that, most customers are customers because it's a walled garden. What are you going to say to a company after it loses customers and revenue and its expenses rise because you took away what made it unique? "Sorry, that's how the system works?", I guess?

Yep, that's how the system works. I have no qualms with forcing the richest company in the world to play fair. You may be under the idea that computers are optional - they're not. Almost everyone has a mobile device, even homeless. They're required to participate in government and business. It's how we rent apartments, pay bills and operate in society. The market has become a public problem by apples hand. Markets no longer belong to their creators when they of their own choices create matters of significant public issue. Apple is not special.

We have plenty of precedent from microsoft being forced to allow software before. Apple and friends have lobbied (bribed) heavily for antitrust and antimonopoly to no longer have teeth. If it were 30 years ago apple would have been put through the meat grinder.

If we need the legal right then we'll legislate it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#438

Post by gonehome »

simion314 wrote: post #435
gonehome wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android app store doesn't have the same review process or restrictions so it's not really a relevant comparison. If Google tried to enforce more policy app devs would use other stores/side load. In hostile countries the google play store is usually not present at all.

>In hostile countries the google play store is usually not present at all Isn't this a good thing? In countries like China you could force Apple to spy and censor users where Android users can side load applications from trusted sources. >If Google tried to enforce more policy app devs would use other stores/side load. What kind of policies ? Any example of such policies? GUI/UX stuff or you mean policies where you c…

Phones in China are owned at the network and software level - you can’t safely side load anything. I’m not sure Apple is safe here either, but I’d guess the security is better? Just guessing though based on reading what security people have blogged about the platforms.

For the policies - things like requiring better ID auth or blocking tracking or requiring IAP. I agree that the tax is bad and stated so elsewhere.

> “ I think you are not ready to admit that you are spreading FUD, reality does not match and you are still building a fantasy.”

This kind of rhetoric when you disagree with someone isn’t helpful and doesn’t change minds.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#439

Post by lacksconfidence »

jbverschoor wrote: post #340
madeofpalk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s not pretend they do these things as charity. Chrome is open source because, as a fork of WebKit, it has to be. For other things, they use open source to drive adoption.

Apple was a big contributor to webkit waay before Chrome even existed. I don't really understand the love for Android (and sometimes Google) and hate for Apple. The first versions of Android were a clone of blackberry until Apple unveiled the iPhone.

> I don't really understand the love for Android (and sometimes Google) and hate for Apple

The reasons are all over this discussion, just spend some time reading it. My takeaway might be that some people value autonomy and ownership, and feel like Android gives them more of that.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#440

Post by ThatMedicIsASpy »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #63
edrxty wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same logic we should just eliminate free will because it's dangerous sometimes. I hate these arguments as it is allowing incompetence to drive innovation. There are plenty of other options whereby 3rd party apps/app stores could be installed safely, just like on any other computer system. If you need to give someone with diminished mental faculties a locked down device, that can be made explicit.

Exactly. I don't understand the argument Apple users are presenting. Its like they can't comprehend that they can have an option to install third-party apps but they don't have to enable or use that if they like being "protected" from hurting themselves.

Hey Apple users do want stuff like https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500005389362-...

This alone makes me never touch Apple - and I have considered it (because I still use my 6yr old Windows Phone). My only phone consideration is a Pixel with GrapheneOS

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