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My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

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Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#681
post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> raped I agree with everything else in your post except for the description of events as "rape". According to the story she wrote, they had sex when she was drunk, and she thought for months after the fact that the sex had been consensual. To me it sounds like sexual abuse / exploitation, not rape. (Unless you're making the pedantic argument that having sex with an intoxicated person is always rape, in which case 2…

According to the story they had sex while drunk. But then he kept on having sex with her, including when she was saying that she didn't want him to. It is rape to have sex with a woman who didn't want it and told you not to. She describes exactly that happening later in the conference. Yes, she tried to convince herself that it was consensual. And he tried to convince her of the same. But that is also a common patter…

> But then he kept on having sex with her, including when she was saying that she didn't want him to.

Nope, the article doesn't contain such claims.

> It is rape to have sex with a woman who didn't want it and told you not to.

Yes it is.

> She describes exactly that happening later in the conference.

No, she does not.

> Yes, she tried to convince herself that it was consensual. And he tried to convince her of the same. But that is also a common pattern for rape, both her attempt to deny it and his to gaslight her.

Two people have sex. Both people come out thinking the sex was consensual. Both people think for months that the sex was consensual. Then the woman changes her mind. Boom! Rape! Welcome to 2021. (To be perfectly clear, I am making fun of your comment, I am not making fun of OP. OP at no point referred to the events as rape, it is only you and other internet commentors who are dead set on using the "rape" label here.)

> Interestingly in surveys, the portion of women who describe having had an encounter meeting the definition of rape has held fairly steady over the decades. But the portion of women who self-describe that as rape has steadily risen. Then really jumped in 2018.

Peculiar indeed! Might it have something to do with the "definition of rape" becoming wider and wider every year? It used to mean a very specific thing, but nowadays it means a lot of things.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Insisting" on sex does not mean sex happened. If you're a shitty person and ask another person "come on have sex with me", and the other person says "no", and then you don't have sex, are you now a rapist?

That's not insisting, that's asking, or suggesting. The construction used by the author indicates that it happened. That's how the term is used.

> The construction used by the author indicates that it happened. That's how the term is used.

Do you actually believe that or are you just making stuff up? If the author had actually been raped-while-screaming-no-stop, I'm pretty sure they would have explicitly said so. This article is extremely well articulated and thought out, I'm pretty sure that would be explicitly in the article if it happened. To me the "insisted" line in the article sounds like there was an event where the man was being an asshole and trying to have sex, and the woman said no, and they didn't have sex at that time (or the woman changed their mind, said yes, and then they did have sex).

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#683
post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The devil is in the details. Every case is different and should be judged on the merit of testimony of those involved and actual evidence. Due process and presumption of innocence are good things. Always believing accusers isn't a good principle. It enables and emboldens abusers not acting in good faith, especially people with narcissistic and borderline personality disorders

Okay, can you give an example of evidence that you would accept in this specific case?

Evidence of what?

I re-read the article to try to figure out what this "specific case" actually might be.

Two people engaged in a consensual physical relations. She was not happy with the outcome.

At the time, she "did not blame him for what happened, and didn't think those behaviors were problematic at the time. ... I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all consensual."

So, only months/years later does she decide she's a victim.

She absolves herself of all responsibility ("There was nothing [I did] to cause this"). Yet, she brought wine to dinner with her mentor, drinks until she's hammered while her partner does not drink (Who does that? Other than alcoholics?). Somehow, every decision she makes is his fault.

90% of the article is about her feelings and his responsibility for them. She feels entitled that he show her "remorse, sympathy, and guilt."

She repeatedly accuses him of gaslighting, when it seems more accurate to say they had different recollections or expectations.

She quotes “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing.” implying he is evil and she is an avenging vigilante.

"I am not trying to convince anyone of anything." This is disingenuous. I think this her way of saying "This is my story, therefore I do not need to provide proof of anything."

"by speaking up, I can take my stolen power back." It's not obvious how her "power" was stolen. Maybe what she really means is, "I feel powerful by destroying his career."

Mature adults learn from uncomfortable experiences and move on. Emotional infants wallow in life-long self-pity and construct elaborate fantasies to support their victimhood.

--

     Any woman.
     Can take down any man.
     At any time.
     With a word.

     - An Empowered Feminist

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder when is something is legally considered rape. Its kind of weird that this hairsplitting curiosity about consent always comes up exclusively in the context of rape and not other crimes with the same “without consent” rule, like battery (particularly since rape is, ina sense, just battery where the “harmful or offensive touching” element involves specific configurations of genital contact.) But its actually…

So basically when a boy makes to first move to kiss a girl, it's already against the law? edit: Why am I downvoted? This is a real question. Sorry for my european ignorance.

I downvoted you (I've reversed that now). I'm having trouble taking your questions seriously as good faith engagement. It sounds rather like you are asking "How much can I get away with?"

If you really want to know how to reach meaningful consent with a sexual partner, investigating the details of "exactly where does the law draw that line" isn't especially useful and it's hard to try to reply to such a question in a constructive fashion that doesn't implicitly suggest ugly things about the motive of the asker, so trying to reply seemed like an unwise choice.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#685

I think what's possibly needed is a return to a more traditional relationship and dating culture. In the past, if a man had a dalliance with with a woman and she got pregnant, he was expected to marry her. Now we expect women to have to be responsible for their own decisions the way men are, but women are generally more emotionally vulnerable than men, due to their more compassionate and less aggressive personalities…

That's a deeply misogynistic take. What do you base this on?

How is it misogynistic?

I base it on the prevalence of stories like this, where a woman ostensibly consents to sexual advances and later regrets it and feels she had be abused.

The issue is not consent. The issue is vulnerability. Women are generally more vulnerable to advances from men and more likely to consent to an interaction when it's not in their best interest, than men would be, due to well documented physiological and psychological differences between the sexes.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a deeply misogynistic take. What do you base this on?

How is it misogynistic? I base it on the prevalence of stories like this, where a woman ostensibly consents to sexual advances and later regrets it and feels she had be abused. The issue is not consent. The issue is vulnerability. Women are generally more vulnerable to advances from men and more likely to consent to an interaction when it's not in their best interest, than men would be, due to well documented physiol…

It essentially assumes incompetence on the part of women. That's not the only possible explanation.

I don't even think it's the most plausible explanation. Social pressure and upbringing are large factors in human behavior and it takes time to make society-wide changes.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like everyone is equal, until everyone is drunk, then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Which is the very thing feminism was fighting AGAINST - having men make decisions for you. Then we blame men, say they need to do better. That seems ridiculous.

The guy was a predator, there was a clear pattern of sexual and emotional abuse.

In her story.

A story that paints him as responsible for everything including her feelings.

Blaming behaviors are a marker of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder.

I'm obviously not qualified to diagnose either party, but a lot of the content of her article blames him for things he's not responsible for and that are completely out of his control.

Furthermore, it seems the worst he's guilty of is being interested in having consensual sex with her. Whereas she's interested in destroying his livelihood and career.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a deeply misogynistic take. What do you base this on?

How is it misogynistic? I base it on the prevalence of stories like this, where a woman ostensibly consents to sexual advances and later regrets it and feels she had be abused. The issue is not consent. The issue is vulnerability. Women are generally more vulnerable to advances from men and more likely to consent to an interaction when it's not in their best interest, than men would be, due to well documented physiol…

> I base it on the prevalence of stories like this

So you've just pulled it out of thin air. What I figured. It's just victim blaming through misogynistic prejudices.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically when a boy makes to first move to kiss a girl, it's already against the law? edit: Why am I downvoted? This is a real question. Sorry for my european ignorance.

I downvoted you (I've reversed that now). I'm having trouble taking your questions seriously as good faith engagement. It sounds rather like you are asking "How much can I get away with?" If you really want to know how to reach meaningful consent with a sexual partner, investigating the details of "exactly where does the law draw that line" isn't especially useful and it's hard to try to reply to such a question in a…

Thank you for responding. I'm sorry I gave you the wrong impression about my question, I personally never had any issues with this.

My wife is a relationship and dating coach, and so it sparks my interest where the law draws the line.

I know from my wife, that nowadays men can approach women (on dates etc.) is to first ask for interactions, like "Can I place my hand on your leg", or "Is it OK if I kiss you". That way to have an explicit consent in all interactions. But there is this other aspect, where most women prefer a "real man that takes initiative", and so the spontaneous kiss might become dangerous if the man is very bad at reading the woman.

My question is basically where the law draws the line, in interactions that can be very complex. But as others responded, it seems up to the jury to decide if something was wrong or not.

P.S.: By the way thank you for giving the best comment in this threat at the top. I'm the father of 1 boy and 3 girls, and your advice is very clear and actionable.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#690
The girl had sex with a creepy manipulative dude and regrets it. I get it. She's obviously super naive. "Yup we can share an Airbnb, i'll bring the wine!". There's obvious sexual overtones there if you are in your 20's, no matter what any of you say. And having spoken at a conference does not put you in a position of power.

He's just a creep, they are pretty common, confident outgoing girls will turn down a creep every weekend. Does not warrant public shaming. I'd be pissed if some girl i texted "Wanna get it ;-8" on tinder, in a blizzard of hormones, three years back, decides to public and destroy my career. I'd be pissed and it wouldn't be fair. That said i'm glad she did, because he sounds like a complete tool. The perpetual conference go'er crowd is full of weirdos.

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