Live data from Hacker News

Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

signal.org

41–50 of 226 posts

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#41
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that voice and video calls work using WebRTC, which is a P2P technology

WebRTC (still) requires a centralized server in order to setup the connection (via STUN/TURN), so if so, Signal could be forced to turn over any logging they have of those setup requests.

Very likely they don't log. Otherwise they'd have had to disclose

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Smartphones in their current form cannot have secure messaging. What about self-hosted matrix/element, used from the browser?

I think the parent poster wanted to highlight the auto update feature of phones.

There are alternative clients for Matrix. You don't need to use Element.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#43
post #27
post #3

Let's see if they try to search the Signal servers for any evidence. And if there is really no information stored. Or if that will disrupt Signal services. The central, non-distributed architecture is always a big concern against Signal.

Even if it's decentralized there's only one client and they can always push updates to male it send keys/messages back for targeted users. Smartphones in their current form cannot have secure messaging.

> Even if it's decentralized there's only one client and they can always push updates to male it send keys/messages back for targeted users.

The clients are open source, presumably you can compile and install the client from source to avoid a bad update being pushed.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#44
post #14

For their first subpoena [1], they said: > It originally included a broad gag order that would have prevented us from publishing this notice, but the ACLU represented us in quickly and successfully securing our ability to publish the transcripts below. This subpoena says: > you are asked not to disclose the existence of nature of the subpoena But the post doesn't mention that at all. I wonder how much effort they had…

> But the post doesn't mention that at all. I wonder how much effort they had to spend, if any, to be able to publish this this time.

Indefinite gag orders aren't a good thing, but if there is an investigation and knowledge of that investigation can interfere with it then I can see why they would be "asked" not to publish it.

These asks should have time limits though, just like security disclosure. The only valid reason to keep it under covers would be just that: because it could interfere with an ongoing investigation.

Asking to not disclose inquiries while an investigation is ongoing, or "withing 12 months due to an ongoing criminal investigation" would have better optics.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#45
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have a bad rep already for sending out extortion letters to torrent users That's almost never the ISPs doing, they are being strong armed by IP owners.

Sure, but some ISPs get strong-armed while others get... weak-armed. (And that's being generous to many of them.)

I completely understad why 9 ISPs out of 10 would choose to just do what's "least legally dangerous" rather than taking the Banhof route which is basically political posturing while taking a risk. Most of Telias customers and shareholders have no skin in that game, and would probably approve of the company taking the smallest amount of legal risk possible.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#46
post #23

The subpoena is from Homeland Security Investigations at LAX airport. They deal specifically with crimes that involve international transport. So this is human trafficking, drug smuggling, money mules, etc. To be honest the rest of it is just standard "we have some phone numbers" boilerplate. Same thing was probably sent to Facebook, Twitter, etc. with the hopes that someone was dumb enough to login and check their m…

The structure of grand juries makes it so that the defense is unable to mount a defense. The fact that grand juries often result in indictment has vanishing little relevance for whether or not it’s a fishing expedition. Further, no one is saying it is a fishing expedition. It’s a request for information that Signal isn’t designed to be able to answer.

You’re also just speculating about the nature of the crime, but saying it confidently, like, oh, this is definitely true. You don’t know.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent poster wanted to highlight the auto update feature of phones.

There are alternative clients for Matrix. You don't need to use Element.

which android can force update or remove if they have to.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#48
post #2

Page 8 of that subpoena says the document files produced must have the extension "*.TIF". (note asterisk) I wonder how they'd like it if you sent them files literally named FILE001.PAGE001.*.TIF (the rest of the specified file format structure notwithstanding) It's very important to follow the instructions exactly when you are legally compelled to do something!

It’s interesting how the government gets to demand the evidence in a very specific format, thereby offloading the work the government should be doing onto someone else, apparently without recompense.

You can be assured that any request for bulk data the government actually fulfills will be available by fax, smoke signal, and cuneiform.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#49
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that voice and video calls work using WebRTC, which is a P2P technology

WebRTC (still) requires a centralized server in order to setup the connection (via STUN/TURN), so if so, Signal could be forced to turn over any logging they have of those setup requests.

You can use existing decentralized systems, e.g. bittorrent DHT or IPFS DHT, to handle signaling and not require a centralized server. STUN is only needed to retrieve the public IP, which you may not need to use (and didn't have to be centralized). In some heavily NATd cases, you'd need a TURN proxy, but not often.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#50
post #23

The subpoena is from Homeland Security Investigations at LAX airport. They deal specifically with crimes that involve international transport. So this is human trafficking, drug smuggling, money mules, etc. To be honest the rest of it is just standard "we have some phone numbers" boilerplate. Same thing was probably sent to Facebook, Twitter, etc. with the hopes that someone was dumb enough to login and check their m…

The structure of grand juries makes it so that the defense is unable to mount a defense. The fact that grand juries often result in indictment has vanishing little relevance for whether or not it’s a fishing expedition. Further, no one is saying it is a fishing expedition. It’s a request for information that Signal isn’t designed to be able to answer. You’re also just speculating about the nature of the crime, but sa…

Grand Juries are a really weird American thing†. The Grand Jury is entirely dependant on the prosecutor for guidance, so as an outsider it appears to me that their real purpose is to enable politically appointed prosecutors to pretend this anonymous "Grand jury" decided not to prosecute somebody when in reality what happened is that the prosecutor didn't want to. So now it's not the prosecutor's fault an obviously guilty person walked free, and yet conveniently they don't need to prosecute anybody they don't want to.

† Americans didn't invent them, but they did keep them after everybody else went "Wait, this is a terrible idea" and abolished the Grand Jury.

Post reply on HN