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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#91

Post by wluu »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

There's AltStore, but it's obviously not as straightforward as the Apple one. https://altstore.io/

Came across it while following the development and distribution of iSH (https://ish.app/), which has now made it into the main app store.

Prior to publishing to AltStore, iSH was only available on Test Flight, which has a limitation on the number of users who can join (10,000). So they'd periodically have to kick inactive users off the TestFlight so others could try it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#92

Post by joshuamorton »

hugi wrote: post #47
paxys wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible for a company to do multiple things, sometimes even conflicting with each other. Google is an ad company, and a hardware/smartphone company, and an enterprise collaboration company, and a cloud hosting company, and lots more. Similarly Apple is a hardware company which is getting more and more of its revenue from digital sales, subscriptions and even advertising every year. They can and do track their…

> It is naive to think that any company at that scale has your best interests at heart. They will do whatever it takes to make more money, period. Exactly. And Apple makes money of privacy. It's their thing. Google's business model is based on abusing my privacy. Apple's business model is based on securing my privacy. That's why I use Apple stuff and won't touch Google with a 10 feet pole.

> Exactly. And Apple makes money of privacy. It's their thing.

Apple makes money by (among other things) appealing to a certain set of privacy conscious consumers. That's different than "making money off of privacy".

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#93

Post by theli0nheart »

havernator wrote: post #77
encryptluks2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I don't understand the argument Apple users are presenting. Its like they can't comprehend that they can have an option to install third-party apps but they don't have to enable or use that if they like being "protected" from hurting themselves.

Right now, ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store. I assume you think that would change, else why have other app stores. That's what I don't want. I want as close to 100% of the software for iOS as possible to have to follow the rules. That's part of why I chose iOS.

> ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store.

Scams are rampant in the App Store. Give an unlocked iPhone to a 5 year old and they'll spend $1000 before you know it. This is not something worth defending.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/02/12/developer-reveals-fake-app-st...

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#94

Post by throwaway3699 »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #66
mulmen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal foo…

Whether something's a monopoly depends on context. If I live in a country with only one phone provider, is that a monopoly? To someone living in that country, yes. But, I could live in another country, and use another phone provider. See, I have choice, therefore it's not a monopoly, right? If you buy an Apple device, your only choice for where to get apps from is from Apple's store. Within that market, they are a mo…

Thinking about this as "App Stores" doesn't make sense for Apple. Forget App Stores. They tax more than half of the app revenue(!) just via iPhone alone.

General purpose computing is something special and it needs to be defended, because it touches on almost all our civil rights discussions today. Global freedom of speech, privacy, etc... are all in the hands of less than a dozen companies.

Which should start with forcing these devices open (everything from bootloader keys, basic information needed to get Linux running, etc...). I can tolerate Android like I tolerate Windows 10, but the iOS situation is just especially awful.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#95

Post by simondotau »

hugh-avherald wrote: post #79
simondotau wrote: post #70

This report is somewhat bipolar. On one hand it's arguing that Google and Apple exert too much control over smartphone app marketplaces. On the other hand its proposed remedy asks that Google and Apple exert even more control over these app marketplaces by stamping down on anti-consumer practices like subscription traps and scams. On the other other hand it proposes that Apple and Google should allow third party paym…

I think you're looking for an inconsistency where there is none. Requiring Apple and Google to stamp down on subscription traps and scams is not handing more control to them.

I did not say it was "handing" more control to them. I said it was asking them to exert more control.

The ACCC are calling on Google and Apple to clamp down harder on what developers can get away with inside their walled gardens. If Apple and Google comply, this clamping down will be seen as anti-competitive in other contexts and used as evidence against them in other venues.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#96

Post by hugi »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #87
hugi wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they can flip. But currently Apple's business model is based on privacy, and they're going for it HARD. Like, really hard. And I like that. The moment they stop doing that, I won't support them. Meanwhile; have you you seen Google stand up to the despicable behaviour of Facebook? No? I wonder why.

Privacy like tracking your app launches? https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-says-itll-change-how-it-coll...

Did you even read the article you linked?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#97

Post by hwbehrens »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #66
mulmen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal foo…

Whether something's a monopoly depends on context. If I live in a country with only one phone provider, is that a monopoly? To someone living in that country, yes. But, I could live in another country, and use another phone provider. See, I have choice, therefore it's not a monopoly, right? If you buy an Apple device, your only choice for where to get apps from is from Apple's store. Within that market, they are a mo…

In technical terms, this situation is referred to as a monopsony [0]; the customer can, at any time, go out and purchase apps from other sources. However, app developers cannot choose to "sell" their apps to other retailers, since there are basically only 2.

It's a distinction without a difference in terms of the power they exert, but legally speaking, the distinction is relevant because the types of behaviors that are proscribed (in the U.S., at least) are relatively narrowly defined. This is not the first time these laws would have to be modified to account for shifts in market exploitation practices, nor will it be last.

For a recent discussion of the topic, see [1].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/opinion/joan-robinson-eco...

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#98

Post by o_p »

Elidrake24 wrote: post #42
encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

iOS is for idiots, noted.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#99

Post by hugi »

joshuamorton wrote: post #92
hugi wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is naive to think that any company at that scale has your best interests at heart. They will do whatever it takes to make more money, period. Exactly. And Apple makes money of privacy. It's their thing. Google's business model is based on abusing my privacy. Apple's business model is based on securing my privacy. That's why I use Apple stuff and won't touch Google with a 10 feet pole.

> Exactly. And Apple makes money of privacy. It's their thing. Apple makes money by (among other things) appealing to a certain set of privacy conscious consumers. That's different than "making money off of privacy".

How so?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#100

Post by thewileyone »

Apple does use this monopoly to their advantage. You can ask the developers whose IP has been stolen and their app (money taken out of their wallets) taken off the AppStore because Apple decided to incorporate the app function and ability into iOS or an Apple app.
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