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My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

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Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#501

Post by elzbardico »

belorn wrote: post #230
btilly wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only kind of agree. In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? I hate the court…

Sweden and Uk spent tens of millions dealing with extradition case for just getting a hearing over an accusation with similar amount of evidence. Technically the legal system could do the same in her case.

We are not in the 80’s anymore. At least in the western world the police is far more prepared to help victims than in the past. Usually the victim is supported by a female investigator, because differently from the past, at least in bigger cities a sizable portion of the police force are women. We are creating this culture of woman fearing getting help from police by pretending things didn’t change during the last 40 years

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#502

Post by grammarnazzzi »

Accacin wrote: post #386
epicureanideal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

Seriously? How often does this happen? Unless you are a terrible person, I doubt anyone would try to ruin someone's life like this. This lady seems to have her head screwed on. Her post doesn't seem to me like she's trying to cause a witch hunt and it seems like she's sharing her story in a logical and sensible manner. I'll gladly read the post from another woman defending John Pretty, but I doubt that's going to be…

> This lady seems to have her head screwed on.

I don't agree.

She did not set her boundaries. She did not effectively communicate boundaries. She did not enforce boundaries.

When she doesn't get the outcome she wants, she turns to blame rather than introspection.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#503

Post by suifbwish »

colecut wrote: post #391
tester756 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person. oh c'mon, it's insanely naive, let's dont try to push narration that those things do not happen

When do they happen, and why did they happen? Edit: since I wasn't clear, I am looking for examples of when this has happened to you, or your friend, or anyone that you have heard of... Edit 2: also by "pretty much" does not happen, I don't mean never happens. But I think the rate at which it happens is probably a rounding error, and I think a lot of people would rather just say "oh well they could be lying" before e…

How would you expect anyone to know the answer to that?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#504

Post by elzbardico »

philwelch wrote: post #481
lukasb wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than... Same article notes that between 2-8% of rape complaints are false. Worries about false rape claims are wildly overblown.

How are these numbers even measurable? > Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions We can measure the numerator here: it’s the number of felony rape convictions. But how do we measure the denominator? In some rape trials, the central question of fact is whether a rape occurred at all, or if the sexual encounter was consensual. If a rape trial leads to acquittal based on reasonable doubt over that question, is…

We should also take into account that this number of false accusations is probably the number where this was clearly determined by the court, probably with legal repercussions for the accuser. The real number probably is higher

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#505

Post by quickthrowman »

epicureanideal wrote: post #256
swyx wrote: post #20

similar stories are emerging: - https://killnicole.github.io/statement/ (edit i see she has added it to the article itself) - https://twitter.com/brianclapper/status/1387115214064193537?... - https://twitter.com/adelbertchang/status/1387090351626723329... there seems to be some coordination here, as this came out pretty much at the same time. https://typelevel.org/blog/2021/04/27/community-safety.html Yifan also link…

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

My anecdotal evidence is that the one time I’ve seen this happen in real life, a former friend of mine had a group of ex-girlfriends talk to each other after their relationships with him about how he beat the shit out of them, which he did, which is why he is a former friend. He admitted the abuse to me. They did not try to character assassinate him.

I’ll give these victims the benefit of the doubt.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#506

Post by suifbwish »

throway98752343 wrote: post #293
epicureanideal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

If a bunch of people who once had close, perhaps even loving relationships with you all come forward and risk their own reputation to say you're bad enough to warrant criminal action, I'd say it's on you to prove them wrong. Or maybe it's all a grand conspiracy, in which case let's follow the money and see that it leads... nowhere.

I’m glad I don’t live in a country where the burden of proof is on me to prove I’m not guilty. That must be awful.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#507

Post by philwelch »

nicklecompte wrote: post #218
philwelch wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there’s a crucial point that you missed: “...there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason” John Wayne Gacy was convicted in a court via the criminal justice system. As a society, we have chosen this as our mechanism for adjudicating these types of accusations, and that mechanism has evolved certain safeguards over time. It’s not perfect, but it is a far fairer venue to be tried in than the “court…

No, because Gacy was accused of things that were actually illegal, whereas much of what Pretty was accused of is clearly not illegal, just shitty. So, as I said in my comment and hardly “glossed over,” the court of public opinion (and the possibility of social / professional sanction) are entirely appropriate! This idea that individuals aren’t allowed to publicly criticize the actions of public figures, or report on…

> This idea that individuals aren’t allowed to publicly criticize the actions of public figures, or report on their own experiences with public figures, is so painfully stupid that I find it astonishing that you are arguing in good faith.

Then maybe you should step back and consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding the point and arguing with a straw man. I never at any point said that “individuals aren’t allowed to publicly criticize the actions of public figures”, and I don’t think you’re acting in good faith by interpreting me as such.

I’m not saying the court of public opinion is the wrong venue for this sort of thing; I’m saying the court of public opinion is, by any reasonable standard, a kangaroo court, and we should exercise much more caution and skepticism toward its judgments than we exercise towards the judgments made by a court of law. Keeping this caution in mind is, in fact, what distinguishes a measured application of social/professional sanction from outright “mob justice”.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#508

Post by suifbwish »

screye wrote: post #475
epicureanideal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

> ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations If all of your exes and close associates hate you enough to coordinate a life ruining operation, then it's quite probable that you were abusive in some capacity. > Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. Yes, you are right. But look at the other side too. How else do a group of people with no proof retaliate agains…

The problem is the bystander isn’t capable of determining the difference between a malicious character assassination and a “righteous” one.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#509

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

tylerhou wrote: post #467
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not OP and I believe the accusations. but if she would have wanted a) real justice and b) create even more hell for the accused while c) staying out of the firing line of misogynists on social media, and d) get closure sooner because people won't be after her for the next years to remind her, then she should have filed a police report. Given his situation (see my other comment[1] on why) she could have made his situa…

Have you ever filed a police report regarding rape/sexual assault? It can be incredibly dehumanizing, especially when it is nearly impossible to prove that someone date-raped you when there are no witnesses.

> Have you ever filed a police report regarding rape/sexual assault?

no, have you?

I do know people in the system so I'm quite familiar with how they work (and what is lore from the US and Hollywood that people assume vs how it works). Germany isn't some Banana Republic, so she actually gets a professional (even she shows up without a lawyer) walking her through these things.

> It can be incredibly dehumanizing

so you do have personal experience with it how this works in Germany? Do tell me, is it more dehumanizing than going on social media and knowing that you will be hunted by misogynists for the next couple of years so you won't ever get closure and need to hope that the mood of the mob doesn't go against you one day (because you have no legal ground to stand on)? I hardly think so.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#510

Post by quickthrowman »

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #502
Accacin wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? How often does this happen? Unless you are a terrible person, I doubt anyone would try to ruin someone's life like this. This lady seems to have her head screwed on. Her post doesn't seem to me like she's trying to cause a witch hunt and it seems like she's sharing her story in a logical and sensible manner. I'll gladly read the post from another woman defending John Pretty, but I doubt that's going to be…

> This lady seems to have her head screwed on. I don't agree. She did not set her boundaries. She did not effectively communicate boundaries. She did not enforce boundaries. When she doesn't get the outcome she wants, she turns to blame rather than introspection.

Implicit in your post is the idea “Power is equal in every relationship” which is obviously false.

This is clear cut victim blaming.

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