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Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

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Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#61
post #7

I've always wondered with things like this, could it be possible to make all interaction "text-based" until final stage? Specifically for hiring: What if applicants submitted resumes, but the name and school they attended are replaced with numbers. Then throughout the interview process all interactions were text-based and they were addressed by this number. Then offer/acceptance is based on merit (hopefully) and not…

I wonder if there are socioeconomic indicators in writing style, too. I wouldn't be surprised if there were, even if we consider only text in which grammar and spelling are correct. (As a small example, there are ways to sound more or less like a mathematician, even when writing about topics unrelated to math.)

The more formal education someone has, the less their writing will reflect these origins. Spoken language has both an accent and a sociolect (dialect associated with a social class). I don't think there's a writing equivalent of accent that is associated with a social class.

Consider that people will do all of their writing in an educational or formal context. I.e. nobody grows up writing to their parents, siblings, and neighbourhood kids in a particular sociolect the way they do with speaking. Many people who speak with not just the accent but also the sociolect of a particular class group will nonetheless write in a way that only really reflects their education since that is the context where they have done most of their writing.

There are definitely stylistic tics that reflect certain ways of thinking. Someone who describes an idea as a "first order approximation" which is "correct to an order of magnitude" reveals that they have come from a particular way of thinking about the world. I'm not sure how may social class related style "tells" would make it into someone's written communication though. Especially task-related communication during a hiring process. Unlike accent which is always on, particular sociolect may only be deployed in a particular context.

It is often pretty easy to tell writing, even if grammatically correct, which comes from someone who is not highly educated and doesn't used writing as a main method of communication. They tend to ramble and their writing reads like a transcript. I used to follow the legal advice subreddits and often the people with the most complex and troubling problems would describe them in this wildly digressive way where right in the middle of a paragraph about something that X had done to Y we're suddenly treated to completely irrelevant details about Y's sister of X's uncle.

Again though, this only shows up in the writing of someone who hasn't had a lot of education. Someone from a humble background but a lot of practice writing may have an obvious accent while writing like any other educated professional. Unlike accents which are almost indelible.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#62
post #59

Where is Professor Higgins when we need him? Henry Higgins: Look at her, a prisoner of the gutter, Condemned by every syllable she utters By right she should be taken out and hung, For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue. Eliza Doolittle: Aaoooww! Henry (imitating her): Aaoooww! Heavens! What a sound! This is what the British population, Calls an elementary education. Pickering: Oh Come sir, I think you pic…

Or, in movie-musical form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#63

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

you will get some replies with the depth of "it would be worse if you were not white." I think there is only the smallest amount of truth there. Here are things that have happened to me, a poor white kid from california (and this is just off the top of my head):

I could never join a sports team in school or other extra curricular, that shit's expensive.

I had to steal food to get enough to eat.

I've been pulled over multiple times, nearly every case because my car was shitty and the cop was shaking me down.

I've been stopped by cops for walking through a hospital parking lot to go visit a friend.

I've had a cop pull a gun out at me and order me to the ground. I was 14.

I was told at a young age to follow cop orders exactly and be non threatening else I may get shot.

My mom didn't come to a complete stop at a side street stop sign. Pulled over and the entire car tossed. The cop told my mom she likely stole it and they will find out what she did.

A white buddy got the shit beat out of him by a cop. His crime was being poor and skating.

I've seen a lot of nice cars going to a car race and then there was my buddy and I in a shitty car. We got pulled over and harassed.

I was constantly excluded from most of my peer group because I was poor.

I had to work multiple jobs to put myself through college -- little financial aid there.

I spent over a decade scraping by because I didn't have a single role model on how to grow my career (or even really start one). Living in a low socio-economic area makes it hard to earn enough to get out.

I was the first and only person in my family to go to college.

I've been ghosted on interviews, called racist names, and hell, my wife had rocks thrown at her as a kid because she was one of like 5 white kids at her inner city school.

Classism is elephant in the room nobody seemingly will acknowledge. But, hey, I'm white, so it can't be that bad, right? /s

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#64
post #34

Doesn't suprise me. My wife is from a rural town in NC, and was told by her high school teachers that she needed to lose her southern accent if she wanted to be taken seriously in college. When she was working on or master's degree in Maryland, a writing professor commented "you speak and write so well, I never would have guessed you're from the south". That kind of discrimination is very prevalent in academia and me…

Yes, but this illustrates that it's possible to make changes in how you present yourself to overcome potential class biases. This levels the playing field a lot. And why shouldn't people seeking higher status jobs or education be expected to present and conduct themselves accordingly?

When my wife was working in the tutoring center during grad school, they were told that telling a minority student to write in "proper english" is racist. So there's clearly a double standard where you're advised that telling a black student to stop using slang and write in "proper english" is racist, but it's fine to tell a white southern student that if they had talked with an accent and used a southern vocabulary, that it's acceptable to assume they're stupid.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#65
post #59

Where is Professor Higgins when we need him? Henry Higgins: Look at her, a prisoner of the gutter, Condemned by every syllable she utters By right she should be taken out and hung, For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue. Eliza Doolittle: Aaoooww! Henry (imitating her): Aaoooww! Heavens! What a sound! This is what the British population, Calls an elementary education. Pickering: Oh Come sir, I think you pic…

Was just going to post about My Fair Lady. Just recently on Netflix and very striking to watch it vis a vis the culture conflict we're in yet again.

I take the lesson of the film to be that high culture can be truly graceful and enriching (ie for Eliza) but can become a hangup when take as its own end (thus Higgins' faults)

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it lead to a huge number of East Asian males?

Universities use an unblinded selection process as a way to intentionally handicap East Asians (and to a slightly lesser extent, white people). Their proportion in enrolment has been trending down steadily over time and has converged to be nearly identical across all the top universities (except for Caltech) which suggests they're all silently colluding (by copying each others' quotas) to keep the Asian enrolment per…

> suggests they're all silently colluding (by copying each others' quotas) to keep the Asian enrolment percentage at precisely the depressed X percent.

You need more evidence than a trend to claim that there is a conspiracy. And you can look the data & admissions guidelines publicly released in SFFA v. Harvard to see that there is no evidence that quotas exist.

> Google does this by making the interview process easier for non majority groups.

Uh, but it doesn't. Speaking as someone who has interviewed 30+ candidates at Google and been present at hiring committees, there is no "lowering of the bar" for people of certain races.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#67

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

Totally agree with you. Which explain why African immigrant that speak (proper) English and wear a suit and tie. Don't have trouble in job interview even if they are "black". While the Black American blame it on racism.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#68
>The study, to be published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, demonstrates that people can accurately assess a stranger’s socioeconomic position — defined by their income, education, and occupation status

One takeaway here is that biases tend to be correct, which makes them that much harder to eliminate.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

Sure you can. You're less likely to be pulled over in most of the US than a black person driving the same car and wearing the same clothes.

I was stopped too by police and one time briefly searched, so what? Being stopped by the police is not a game changer. If you haven't done anything wrong you'll walk away and go to work and back home.

Why is being stopped by police such a big deal? I think the police should do more of that in the US, it would reduce crime considerably.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#70

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

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