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My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

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Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#181
post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

[deleted]

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#182
post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

> Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent. “Imagine that you were convicted of murder but, unlike John Wayne Gacy, you were innocent.” Seriously what is the point of comments like this? False convictions are real and very very bad, but I know very few social justice advocates who are opposed to locking up serial killers. Likewise, the existence of unscrupulous pe…

> Therefore the court of public opinion is the only court that has solid jurisdiction, so to speak.

based on what his public info shows about his location this medium post (and the ensuing public outrage) cops in that country will have to press charges (in case they haven't been pressed already).

There is a high chance he is a flight risk so they will book him, _unless_:

  - he is actually a passport holder of that country (doesn't seem the case), and 
  - has a proper address registered as is law, (many Brits don't care since British law doesn't require it)
  - has a strong social family network in that country, (unlikely)
  - has a job in that country (contracting/freelancing doesn't count here)
... then he is looking forward to spending 6 months minimum in "Untersuchungshaft" (hard time) or for whatever length of time investigations are ongoing (until trial).

What I'm getting at is that this is a very serious allegation that _will_ result in hard time if convicted but also until he actually gets his day in court! But for that to happen she needs to do more than a Medium post (make a statement with the cops which can be scary but shouldn't be if she actually brings a lawyer). In case she doesn't then it needs to be considered a character assassination which itself is a felony. In any case posting such a piece is legally risky for her and if she would have bothered getting a lawyer, they most certainly would have advised her against it. The best option for her would be to go through the court system of where he is currently located.

Most other options have a high risk of this going nowhere (cost + extradition etc) and even give more room for speculation and he-said-she-said which shouldn't (imho) be the goal of the metoo movement and indeed it should be called out for mob-justice.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#183
post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

> Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent. “Imagine that you were convicted of murder but, unlike John Wayne Gacy, you were innocent.” Seriously what is the point of comments like this? False convictions are real and very very bad, but I know very few social justice advocates who are opposed to locking up serial killers. Likewise, the existence of unscrupulous pe…

I think there’s a crucial point that you missed:

“...there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason”

John Wayne Gacy was convicted in a court via the criminal justice system. As a society, we have chosen this as our mechanism for adjudicating these types of accusations, and that mechanism has evolved certain safeguards over time. It’s not perfect, but it is a far fairer venue to be tried in than the “court of public opinion”. That’s not an insignificant point, and you’re glossing over it entirely.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#184
post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

We have criminal and civil justice systems that have different levels of burden of proof, and correspondingly differ in the severity of their outcomes.

It makes sense to also have social justice systems that are lower burden of proof and have lesser consequences. Especially for crimes that are difficult to prosecute and have low visibility.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#185
post #64
post #17

This is just downright disgusting, does somebody know if there have been consequences? I usually go to general or Go conferences and wonder if there is similiar stuff happening, but i have a good feeling since at least the go conferences alway emphasize inclusion. Lets hope this is true.

Everyone is migrating Scala projects as we speak. This has very little to do with Scala and everything to do with the darkside of the conference scene. Getting involved with conferences at the level she did introduces travel - drugs - drinking - partying with somewhat like minded young people. The culture at the top can be about money, stars and groupies but it revolves around power. Those in charge decide who speak.…

I have been going to conferences regularly for the past 9 years (eycept covid of course) and find them to be rather tame actually. Drinking is widely spread, but most other stuff i have not noticed. I also gave talks - maybe the community is different here in europe.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#186
post #36

> I don’t remember how much I drank. I don’t remember him drinking. But I remember feeling uncomfortable when he made advances on me. I felt being taken advantage of that he had unprotected sex with me when I was intoxicated. Nothing felt right. I remember panicking and crying. I don't want to victim blame here because this guy sounds like a grade A creep and predator. But does a person not have some responsibility h…

The front door of one's home always seemed a good analogy to me.

Is it good practice to lock your front door, on the assumption that some people are malicious and will take advantage and rob you if you don't? With particular caution suggested in some areas? Yes.

Is someone who is robbed when they did not lock their front door responsible for the crime in some sense? No, not really. A normal human failing to carry out a precaution that shouldn't be necessary in the first place, perhaps. I've forgotten to lock my front door once in a while, haven't you?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#187
post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

I think that's a pretty cynical POV. False accusations happen, but aren't the norm. Far more abusers get away with their bad behavior than good people are wrongly punished. Yifan already has a second woman coming forward describing similar behavior as well some witnesses to some of the public parts. It's probably unlikely she'd be able to prove a criminal case in whatever country this happened, but we don't need bad behavior to be criminal to declare it unacceptable and stop rewarding it. It's likely we'll see a few more pretty soon, hear Pretty's side and then the court of public opinion can render a decision. Right now, her story is pretty plausible and she has seemingly no motive to fabricate. He won't go to jail, but he will stop being invited to conferences and likely lose his livelihood.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#188
post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

You know the reason people started leaning into social justice is because the cops and the courts weren't doing a very good job? That's why we are where we are. Also the fact that a lot of dudes just can't imagine a world where they just keep to themselves doesn't really help the problem. But again, this is where we find ourselves and it is going to keep continuing.

And frankly the idea that there are people that believe "smear campaigns" are as normal as every day sexual harassment is extremely laughable.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are victim blaming. Men aren’t wild bears, they’re human beings who should be held accountable for their actions. How drunk someone is around another human being has nothing to do with the perpetrator’s culpability.

Victim blaming or not, I think most parents wisely caution their children about alcohol, intoxication, and making good decisions about their own personal safety, when they reach the appropriate age. What parent doesn’t have that conversation with their teenage kid?

I don't think eloff is Yifan's parent.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#190
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be easier to judge if she said that she did not give consent. You may be right, but you also have to agree that some people will pause before judging definite rape for described situation where girl accepts invitation to sleep in the same airbnb, without anybody else, with single guy, bringing bottle of wine, not mentioning she did not give consent, feeling bad afterwards. From that description it's really d…

> some people will pause before judging definite rape for described situation where girl accepts invitation to sleep in the same airbnb, without anybody else, with single guy, bringing bottle of wine, None of those things even remotely imply consent for a sexual advance. Those are all things that should be fine for anyone of any gender to do together without there being fear of a sexual assault. Anyone who looks at t…

My point is that she doesn't mention she didn't want it, said "no" or anything that implies not giving consent.
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