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My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

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Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#161

Post by klyrs »

the-dude wrote: post #28
Pfhreak wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex was had while she did not consent, she mentions in the fifth paragraph.

That is not what she says there. She says she felt uncomfortable and taken advantage of.

She was unable to resist his advances, for various reasons listed. While it doesn't sound like she beat him off with a stick, it does sounds like she shut down, dissociated, and didn't say "no." Consent isn't presumed; consent is not the lack of a "no", consent is the presence of free, ongoing, and enthusiastic yes. Even if she reluctantly agreed, it consent wasn't freely given in light of the power imbalance and intoxication. Even if she reluctantly agreed, that isn't enthusiastic consent. Even if she wanted sex, but he refused to use the protection she wanted him to use, that's not ongoing consent. But she clearly didn't want sex with this dude; not like that

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#162

Post by [deleted] »

_qwfv wrote: post #106
ALittleLight wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly later she writes "I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all consensual". I think it is something of a philosophical issue to debate about whether you can think you consented and later determine you didn't. It's also strange to me that it takes months and consultation with a therapist to determine if you did or did not consent.

Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Or seen one firsthand? People can be made to believe all sorts of things that aren't true by charismatic or powerful people. It may take them some time to realize they are being tricked or abused. You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe…

[deleted]

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#163

Post by ALittleLight »

_qwfv wrote: post #106
ALittleLight wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly later she writes "I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all consensual". I think it is something of a philosophical issue to debate about whether you can think you consented and later determine you didn't. It's also strange to me that it takes months and consultation with a therapist to determine if you did or did not consent.

Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Or seen one firsthand? People can be made to believe all sorts of things that aren't true by charismatic or powerful people. It may take them some time to realize they are being tricked or abused. You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe…

Maybe that's true and some Rasputin-like figure could manipulate you into believing you thought things that you didn't, but that doesn't seem to be what is alleged here. She wasn't living in this guy's cult, he helped her professionally and with conferences, and she agreed to share a room with him on a trip. That strikes me as less mind-control and more just a situation that people get into sometimes.

She is and was an adult woman. Can I not expect her to know, in the typical case, whether she does or does not consent to sex? And I'm not talking about "He got me drunk and then forced sex when I couldn't consent" - obviously that would be rape, but it seems like you should realize that when you sober up, not months or years later.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#164

Post by gambiting »

btilly wrote: post #124
JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

I only kind of agree. In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? I hate the court…

>>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city.

Well, that's not strictly true. At least the official advice in the UK is that even if the crime happened elsewhere you should still report it locally, then the case should be forwarded to the authorities in the country where it allegedly happened.

https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%....

No idea how/if that would work in US, but in general you should be able to report it locally.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#165

Post by dog_boy »

QUFB wrote: post #7
jdmoreira wrote: post #4

I have no clue on who this guy is nor do I have any sort of interest in Scala but this is terrible. If this is even remotely true I hope he suffers enormous consequences including being persecuted. How are people still getting away with this kind of abuse? How?

> How are people still getting away with this kind of abuse? How? Read the comments in this thread six hours from now and you'll understand.

didn't even take an hour...

so many absolutely disgusting comments already.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#166

Post by jghn »

domano wrote: post #17

This is just downright disgusting, does somebody know if there have been consequences? I usually go to general or Go conferences and wonder if there is similiar stuff happening, but i have a good feeling since at least the go conferences alway emphasize inclusion. Lets hope this is true.

I straddle a handful of domains in my professional life. Each of these domains has these stories come up from time to time. Further each domain talks about whisper networks where people alert newcomers who the bad actors are. I have come to view it as more likely that every community has these problems than to view it as a localized concern.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#168

Post by andrewzah »

Sebb767 wrote: post #147
andrewzah wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone should coin a law for this phenomenon: Every single time a ~~woman~~ victim makes a public statement like this, in the comment sections a man must be discussing false accusations or the court of public opinion. I don't think I've ever not seen this. People who are abused are damned if they do, damned if they don't. edit: removed specific gender edit2: I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. This is a phenomen…

And people who are accused are damned, period. I can see why mob justice can sometimes be the only options for victims, but the abuse potential is massive . By the way, I see no reason a woman or a trans person could not make this statement.

"but the abuse potential is massive."

I think people grossly exaggerate this. We have libel and slander laws. Individual companies aside, entire communities of people aren't that stupid. In my opinion, this is a really pessimistic view of people and also not based in reality in my experience.

At the end of the day, we need to be able to listen to victims. The amount of fake accusers compared to real victims is microscopic.

"And people who are accused are damned, period."

Not really. There are literally countless examples of accusations/allegations and nothing happening to people for whatever reason, usually influence/popularity.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#169

Post by Pfhreak »

the-dude wrote: post #55
fabian2k wrote: post #13

The "share an AirBnB to be able to afford the conference" part seems particularly damning to me. That seems entirely premeditated and predatory.

To me it sounds generous and possibly completely harmless.

It creates a power imbalance, or increases the power imbalance that already existed between the two.

If you have a boss/employee relationship, or a mentor/mentee relationship, or a professor/student relationship, you need to tread extra carefully around consent. One party in those relationships holds incredible power over the other, and can coerce the weaker party into things they may not be comfortable doing.

Likewise, enabling someone to attend a conference they would not otherwise be able to financially afford creates a possibility of coercion . It's not always coercive, but it needs to be handled delicately and appropriately. In the author's situation, if she refused, there was a chance she was thrown out onto the streets of Berlin at who knows what hour, with no money/luggage, and maybe no ability to speak the local language.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#170

Post by Ankintol »

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

> there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason Having supported a few friends trying to push these kinds of complaints through the courts, I think the precise reason this kind of naming and shaming has become so common place is the criminal justice system isn't working well.

Even for fairly straightforward sexual assault case in a liberal jurisdiction with witnesses I've watched a friend struggle with members of the justice system verbally insulting and degrading them as they try to obtain justice for themselves.

Having seen all that when I see a post like this I understand why the author did not go to court, and don't question it. If we took the time to actually fix the courts I'd be much more skeptical of claims that had not been presented to law enforcement.

I feel for people like your brother who are victims of people abusing the trend, but as long as our justice system fails victims so horribly I think this is the least bad solution available.

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