Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#81

Post by tablespoon » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #72

captainmuon wrote: post #41

Around 2004 I visited the chipmaking industry in Dresden on a university field trip. We went to AMD and to AMTC (Advanced Mask Technology Center). It looked like they were doing pretty well, they were increasing production capacity and also doing research, and AMD and others were investing a lot of money. I think now the whole campus belongs to Globalfoundaries. It is really sad how the domestic/western production be…

> It is really sad how the domestic/western production became irrelevant. Has it though? The West is up against governments. TSMC is part owned by their government. SMIC is part owned by their government. Samsung's share of South Korean GDP is so large that it might as well be the government. In the face of such organized and concentrated competition, what's so sad about some private businesses falling short?

> In the face of such organized and concentrated competition, what's so sad about some private businesses falling short?

I think the sad thing they were talking about is those businesses not getting the support they needed, because of an incompetent lack of strategic vision on the part of their governments'. It's like sending your army to a gunfight only armed with knives.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#82

Post by dijit » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #66

dijit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually do have a lot of manufacturing in the EU; maybe not cheap plastic gizmos that you find at the store, but we have a relatively rich automotive industry which reaches into aerospace engineering and agriculture.

You do not really have much manufacturing in the EU. What you have is people working on the design of things that are manufactured in China. Just like the US, which in terms of value-add is the world's largest manufacturer, but in terms of actually manufacturing stuff, not so much. There is also some final component assembly (but that is not a major portion of value add), it is used to capture subsidies and claim tha…

If you’re interested you should really take a trip to Eindhoven, NL. Plenty of actual fabrication of electronics is happening there.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#83

Post by arp242 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

shimonabi wrote: post #22

aruggirello wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that wouldn't count as European, after Brexit :-)

Stop mixing Europe with the EU. EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. There is only talk of subsidizing EU chip production, because a few German car executives got worried.

The British use "Europe" to refer to the mainland, often implying that Britain isn't part of it. It's not a coincidence they left the EU, and were ever only half-way in the EU.

Is Britain part of Europe? Well, it's not a yes/no type of question. "In some ways, but not in others" would probably be the best answer.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#84

Post by chmod775 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

tasubotadas wrote: post #44

captainmuon wrote: post #41

Around 2004 I visited the chipmaking industry in Dresden on a university field trip. We went to AMD and to AMTC (Advanced Mask Technology Center). It looked like they were doing pretty well, they were increasing production capacity and also doing research, and AMD and others were investing a lot of money. I think now the whole campus belongs to Globalfoundaries. It is really sad how the domestic/western production be…

Germany lost its edge not because of missing subsidies but because there are too many of them. Germany is taxing companies and people too much (40-50%) so capital is leaving the country. Actually, the same can be said about most of the western Europe.

With capital leaving the country you clearly can't be speaking of Germany's current account balance, something like low foreign investment or any other metric I can think of.

What are you thinking of?

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#85

Post by arp242 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

saveduaclick wrote: post #27

The intersection between bold entrepreneurship and european social-market political environment is zero.

This can easily be disproven by the fact that I am 1) an entrepreneur, and 2) European.

Either I am a highly unusual statistical fluke, or your comment is bollocks.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#86

Post by Bayart » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

shimonabi wrote: post #22

aruggirello wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that wouldn't count as European, after Brexit :-)

Stop mixing Europe with the EU. EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. There is only talk of subsidizing EU chip production, because a few German car executives got worried.

>EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years.

Despite constant screeching about its imminent demise, the EU still hasn't failed. And "Europe", at least as we think of it, only goes back to Renaissance diplomacy at best, but realistically to the Peace of Westphalia.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#87

Post by stunt » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

gman83 wrote: post #17

Can someone explain to me why the knowhow that European companies like ASML have can't be used to build these foundries. Why do they need Intel or TSMC?

Chip making was outsourced to Asia because it's cheaper to make them there.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#88

Post by imtringued » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

rapsey wrote: post #16

coldtea wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand - do you think there is no manufacturing in Europe? A lot of minor manufacturing, plus a lot of assembly to be able to call the final product e.g. "german made" and have the associated tax-cuts...

Assembly of parts mostly made in other countries of europe...

Germany has a trade surplus to those countries as well.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#89

Post by shimonabi » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #86

shimonabi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop mixing Europe with the EU. EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. There is only talk of subsidizing EU chip production, because a few German car executives got worried.

>EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. Despite constant screeching about its imminent demise, the EU still hasn't failed. And "Europe", at least as we think of it, only goes back to Renaissance diplomacy at best, but realistically to the Peace of Westphalia.

In our country, Roman law is the dread of every law school freshman.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#90

Post by nobodyandproud » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #75

obscoth wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, why aren’t we destroying the environment in Europe more? This is a great question. Kids these days have it too easy. They barely get any lead in their water.

We have the technology to deal with those byproducts. It just costs money and takes energy.

Then one answer is to impose tariffs on end services and products, on nations that don’t meet the same environmental concerns.

The tariffs should match the cost of said overhead.