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Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

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Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#71

Post by detaro »

rsj_hn wrote: post #64
mattmanser wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tried cutting taxes like crazy since Reagan and it's been a complete and utter bust.

This is when people get all confused by the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient". You need a lot more than lower taxes to make a business-friendly environment, and in some sense these are fungible. Businesses can pay more taxes in order to get other advantages, like more flexible labor policy, more skilled workers, or more stable regulations. People don't realize that stability of regulations is much more…

Somehow none of that has happened with the existing fabs here, so why would it suddenly be an issue?

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#72

Post by totalZero »

captainmuon wrote: post #41

Around 2004 I visited the chipmaking industry in Dresden on a university field trip. We went to AMD and to AMTC (Advanced Mask Technology Center). It looked like they were doing pretty well, they were increasing production capacity and also doing research, and AMD and others were investing a lot of money. I think now the whole campus belongs to Globalfoundaries. It is really sad how the domestic/western production be…

> It is really sad how the domestic/western production became irrelevant.

Has it though? The West is up against governments. TSMC is part owned by their government. SMIC is part owned by their government. Samsung's share of South Korean GDP is so large that it might as well be the government.

In the face of such organized and concentrated competition, what's so sad about some private businesses falling short?

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#73

Post by mrweasel »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #53
shimonabi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You should ask your national authority, they are the ones in charge of it. Though they do seem to be doing a bad job of informing you.

To be fair the EU was responsible for buying the vaccines to avoid member states fighting, and they forgot that price wasn’t the only factor and failed to ensure speedy deliveries.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#74

Post by totalZero »

lnsru wrote: post #3

Will I get lots of rotten tomatoes telling, that this is a huge waste of money? Chips production is one thing, but the whole ecosystem matters. So these chips produced in Europe must be sent back to Asia for integration in final products. Or a miracle will happen and European Union will resurrect manufacturing? I doubt, because manufacturing means missing climate goals.

It's pretty easy to send chips as freight. They are small and valuable, so the price density per unit volume (or specific price per unit weight) is high. They don't fall apart if you jostle them and they survive at lots of different temperatures.

If we can ship bananas from Guatemala to Portland before they turn yellow, I'm certain that we could send chips from a Western fab to an Eastern assembly plant.

I think the bigger challenge is perhaps getting the boules/substrates. My understanding is that the best ones come from Japan, and if your fab yield is low, you're getting far more raw inputs than finished outputs. One solution to that problem would be to make the silicon crystal in the same region as the fabs. Another would be to set up a distributor corporation that buys in massive bulk to get shipping costs down, then slowly sells off inventory to manufacturers.

There are some essential chemicals involved in semiconductor fabrication as well, but I think you can probably find those in any region of the first world.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#75

Post by totalZero »

obscoth wrote: post #67
rsj_hn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is when people get all confused by the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient". You need a lot more than lower taxes to make a business-friendly environment, and in some sense these are fungible. Businesses can pay more taxes in order to get other advantages, like more flexible labor policy, more skilled workers, or more stable regulations. People don't realize that stability of regulations is much more…

Yeah, why aren’t we destroying the environment in Europe more? This is a great question. Kids these days have it too easy. They barely get any lead in their water.

We have the technology to deal with those byproducts. It just costs money and takes energy.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#76

Post by rsj_hn »

detaro wrote: post #71
rsj_hn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is when people get all confused by the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient". You need a lot more than lower taxes to make a business-friendly environment, and in some sense these are fungible. Businesses can pay more taxes in order to get other advantages, like more flexible labor policy, more skilled workers, or more stable regulations. People don't realize that stability of regulations is much more…

Somehow none of that has happened with the existing fabs here, so why would it suddenly be an issue?

I don't know where you live or what you mean by "here", but there is a reason no new chip fab is going to be built in California but they are building them in Arizona. The US has a federal system where states have a lot of control over things like environmental regulations, water usage, etc.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#77

Post by azinman2 »

Dah00n wrote: post #62
captainmuon wrote: post #41

Around 2004 I visited the chipmaking industry in Dresden on a university field trip. We went to AMD and to AMTC (Advanced Mask Technology Center). It looked like they were doing pretty well, they were increasing production capacity and also doing research, and AMD and others were investing a lot of money. I think now the whole campus belongs to Globalfoundaries. It is really sad how the domestic/western production be…

I'm not disagreeing but you comment could be rewritten and still be true: >The US is steamrolling us, because 1) they think and act strategic, 2) size-wise, they are not one country but many countries and city-states working as one and 3) they are beating us at our own game because we have a slavish devotion to WTO principles while they will use protectionism if it benefits them. This is as true overall IMO. I'm not…

But China is doing things no one else is doing. Requiring a local partner, giving up your IP to them and/or “security reviews”, not letting through many companies to give their own home grown a chance (eg Facebook, Google, etc), currency controls, currency manipulation, exploiting the global postal system to facilitate being export-oriented, inaccessible courts that never punish IP theft and abuse, the list is quite extensive and very asymmetric.

You can knock the US however you want, but you can’t claim that it doesn’t allow it’s existing infrastructure (eg laws, courts, currency, etc) to be equally open to foreign companies. Unlike in China, foreign companies can sue US companies and win if they’re in the right, and no one doubts that ability based on nationalistic favor.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#78

Post by detaro »

rsj_hn wrote: post #76
detaro wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow none of that has happened with the existing fabs here, so why would it suddenly be an issue?

I don't know where you live or what you mean by "here", but there is a reason no new chip fab is going to be built in California but they are building them in Arizona. The US has a federal system where states have a lot of control over things like environmental regulations, water usage, etc.

Western Europe, where fabs "can't happen". Nobody is complaining about the existing fabs, they really are not worse than other industry, and they get the high-tech/future bonus. No "millions of sanctimonious kids with nothing more meaningful in their lives than marching with signs" as you like to call them against that.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#79

Post by mrweasel »

ginko wrote: post #23
shimonabi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop mixing Europe with the EU. EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. There is only talk of subsidizing EU chip production, because a few German car executives got worried.

>EU is a few decades old failed experiment Why do people say this with such conviction?

Because the EU is terrible at highlighting what benefits it actually provides to the people in the union. The EU, for all it’s flaws and silly rules is single greatest thing to happen to Europe. But all those good things are only apparent when taken away, the UK is only just now learning that. Free trade and movement across European borders is product of the EU, and it sucks to have it taken away from you.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#80

Post by arp242 »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #60
gman83 wrote: post #17

Can someone explain to me why the knowhow that European companies like ASML have can't be used to build these foundries. Why do they need Intel or TSMC?

>why the knowhow that European companies like ASML have can't be used to build these foundries chip production is not simply buying off the shelf equipment and magically you can get to 10nm max yield that is profitable. equipment is one part of the whole production process. ASML may know how to build EUV but their skillset is not running the fab. if all you need is equipment, why Intel is struggling with 10nm for so…

What other kind of challenges are there in the manufacturing process? I'm not really very knowledgable in this area, and curious to know a bit more.
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