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‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

theguardian.com

171–180 of 339 posts

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think researchers underestimated how much solar simply “makes sense” to the average person. Once the price is reasonable enough, people are very easily able to latch onto the idea of using what they already know and feel - the sun’s heat. Whenever I mention the solar panels in my parents house, the first question is always about the price. When I tell them they will break even in a few years, their next question is…

My favorite part of PV is that you can scale it to fit any power generating capacity, from a residential roof all the way up to a 50MW farm. It’s fairly linear, too, in terms of land usage and cost, which makes it easy to understand.

50MW is a small scale solar generator these days. Bhadla Solar Park is 2.2GW, and there are plans being tossed around to go even larger. For example 10GW in northern Australia (Sun Cable).

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#172
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are we at in 2021 for pay off period? Does it vary by region?

In Australia, after a $2500 .gov subsidy, mine will pay for themselves in 4.5 years. LG Panels with 25 Year output guarantee. 6.6kw System. Financially speaking it's a complete no brainer. One thing I did notice when I was living in the USA though, was how expensive it was over there compared to Australia. Installation costs are 3x the price, I have no idea why. My system before the subsidy was $11k, and that was for…

Most of the difference is in business practices, in customer acquisition. Basically all the advertising and salespeople to push solar. Lack of uniform building codes, and highly disparate permitting processes also raise costs in the US. Utilities are also hugely inconsistent throughout the US, not varying city-to-city like permitting processes, but there are thousands of different utilities in the US each with different policies. And perhaps the biggest problem is utility policies that either eliminate or make feasible solar for homes. After a utility makes solar possible by allowing favorable interconnection policies, companies rush in attempting to take advantage of the new market. But when utility executives get enough lobbying power to make solar economically infeasible through unreasonable fees, it kills existing solar installers. So the only solar companies that survive are those with large reach across lots of geographies that also have massive marketing arms that can do big customer acquisition when there's a sudden window of favorable solar interconnection policy.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tell them they will break even in a few years Then why don't more companies offer to become your electricity provider and install the solar panels for free? They could say "We promise that your energy bills will be cheaper this year than last year (as long as you don't use more energy), and within a few years you'll own the panels and can switch to a different electricity provider."

Pretty sure there are companies that do this. My parents received an offer like this, structured like a lease with a small buyout at the end.

Solarcity does this

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#174

> "[in 2000] Shi agreed and ended up settling in the small city of Wuxi" A bit of a tangent, but it’s always strange to me when people describe Chinese or Indian cities with millions of residents as "small". Wuxi had >1 million people in 2000, and today has like 3.5 million (6.5 million in the prefecture). This article makes it sound like a minor town in a remote province, but Jiangsu has about the same population as…

That's probably how the Chinese refer to it? You can also interpret it as meaning "insignificant". A poor city with the same population as London has a much lower profile.

I don't think Wuxi is insignificant.

Wuxi has been a city for 2200 years, since London was a scattered group of Celtic-speaking villages. Even earlier, in the Spring and Autumn Period, the capital of the State of Wu, Meili, was probably in what is now Wuxi, though it may have been a few kilometers to the southeast in Suzhou. This is where the famous war of Wu against Chu began, a century after Romulus was said to have founded Rome, where the Etruscan kings still ruled. At that time, when Meili was half a millennium old —a century before Plato would found the Academy from which academia takes its name— Sun Tzu led the Wu army of King Helü to victory against Chu, making Wu one of the most important kingdoms of the Spring and Autumn Period, and making himself one of the best-selling and most influential writers in the 20th century, 2500 years later. Temples dating from the Wu period are still popular tourist attractions in Wuxi. It has been a major commercial center since before Charlemagne was born. In 1830, before two thirds of the population died in the Taiping Rebellion, Wuxi was half a million people, 4% of the population of the United States at the time.

Today, five million people live in Wuxi. It's one of the 100 biggest cities in the world, and 25% of China's microelectronics industry is in Wuxi; probably every electronic device in your house contains chips made in Wuxi.

Perhaps people think of Wuxi as "small" because it is part of the Shanghai metropolitan area. Shanghai proper has 24.5 million people, and has been one of the biggest seaports in the world for thousands of years — when Stonehenge was built, Shanghai was already at least a thousand years old. Wuxi is only half as old and five times smaller than Shanghai, and there are many ancient and enormous cities in the region, so by comparison Wuxi might seem small.

But most countries in the world do not even have one city as big as Wuxi. Wuxi is bigger than Berlin, Madrid, or Rome, or indeed any city in Germany, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Austria, Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, or New Zealand. It's bigger than Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, or Philadelphia. In Turkey, only Istanbul and possibly Ankara are bigger than Wuxi; in Australia, only (greater) Sydney and (greater) Melbourne are Wuxi-sized. It's three times the size of Dallas, San Diego, Birmingham (England), or Munich. More people live in Wuxi than in Oregon, Uruguay, the country of Mongolia, Puerto Rico, Lithuania, Kentucky, Botswana, Iowa, Kazakhstan, Utah, or Qatar. Wuxi's population is triple Estonia's.

If you look at the first photo in https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/31029, the big black area in the middle is Lake Tai. As the label tells you, Suzhou is the cluster of light on its right (east) shore; Wuxi is the cluster of light on its north (top) shore.

Another significant aspect of the situation is that China has just been through 200 years of absolute hell — including the worst civil war in history, multiple foreign invasions and occupations (including 14 years of World War II), by far the worst famine in history (one with the dubious distinction of being self-inflicted, unlike the famines in India and Ireland), the Cultural Revolution, and the end of the Qing dynasty. China is now recovering. Chinese electrical production has doubled during the last decade. Wuxi 10 or 20 years ago is not the same as Wuxi today.

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Finally, I think the Guardian has an anti-Chinese agenda, which leads them to trivialize anything they can about China. Consider the subtitle: "Australian smarts and Chinese industrial might made solar power the cheapest power humanity has seen, and no one saw it coming." But in fact, although people many countries contributed smarts to the problem, Chinese smarts are by far the most relevant here.

Also, some people did see it coming; https://dercuano.github.io/notes/solar-economics.html are my notes on the subject from 13 years ago, where I wasn't entirely sure what form cheap solar energy would take, but concluded that there were so many promising alternatives that one would surely be successful. I looked hard to find a cost factor that kept the prices of PV cells so high, and couldn't find one, and noted that the internal economics of the situation seemed to mandate rapid cost decreases. Though I didn't know it, Swanson had been presenting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson's_law at conferences sponsored by NREL and the like since at least 02004, so it wasn't just some eccentric in Buenos Aires taking notes on SEC reports and doing calculations—it was a credible calculation being presented at conferences.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you live in the sunbelt, it will take more than a few years to recoup. Factor in replacing the inventor every 7 years, it becomes questionable, it also depends on your storage solution or local buy back program. Add an electric car to the mix and it becomes feasible. But I think it still needs to become cheaper.

Any source for inverter life span only 7 years ?

It depends greatly on your setup but, unless you are running some crazy, completely off-grid, system with cheap batteries and cheap inverter, you can expect an inverter to last you longer than this. Most are rated for 10-15 years, with some rated for 25 year lifecycle.

As with many things, quality costs, but not all costly inverters are quality, so do your research before you buy.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#177
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your source doesn't support your assertion, but I suppose you're free to ignore that little problem if you want to. In the meantime, we should be talking about how best to make storage happen, because anyone who isn't busy playing semantics games can see that storage (critically: paying for storage) is going to dominate the back half of this transition.

The claims were being made that net metering currently has a set of issues that makes the referenced policy a generous policy. The link provides seems plenty to refute that claim to me. You seem to be moving the goals posts here. If you combine net metering with time based pricing, it seems like there is plenty of incentive for smart people like you to build energy storage and make money off of arbitrage.

There is, but storage isn't cheap enough yet. Tesla powerwalls are still pretty expensive, at around $8k each, from what I hear. If they can get the cost down by another factor of 5-10, I think you'll see a huge acceleration in adoption and possible arbitrage.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you live in the sunbelt, it will take more than a few years to recoup. Factor in replacing the inventor every 7 years, it becomes questionable, it also depends on your storage solution or local buy back program. Add an electric car to the mix and it becomes feasible. But I think it still needs to become cheaper.

Any source for inverter life span only 7 years ?

The warranty for most residential solar inverters is around 10 years, though often prorated towards the end of that timeframe. 7 years does not sound crazy, though with good cooling and and decent quality it's probably a tad low.

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#179

> "[in 2000] Shi agreed and ended up settling in the small city of Wuxi" A bit of a tangent, but it’s always strange to me when people describe Chinese or Indian cities with millions of residents as "small". Wuxi had >1 million people in 2000, and today has like 3.5 million (6.5 million in the prefecture). This article makes it sound like a minor town in a remote province, but Jiangsu has about the same population as…

Wuxi has yummy pai gu (pork spare ribs in sauce)

Re: ‘Insanely cheap energy’: solar power continues to shock the world

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know how much lithium there is? Every year we discover more accessible lithium than the year before. Do the history!

This is correct. Here is the USGS mineral commodity summary for lithium in 2010: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/prd-wret/assets/palladium... Here is the same report for 2021: https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2021/mcs2021-lithium.pd... World lithium reserves went up from 9.9 million tons in 2010 to 21 million tons in 2021 even as extraction accelerated. Companies have been putting more effort into discovery wh…

And most of our lithium doesn't come from proper "reserves" but from what is categorized as "resources," which is several times the quantity of "reserves." I don't know how much lithium is out there but we've barely even begun looking and there's never been demand for much in the past.
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