I'm not really shocked when people deny genocides that happened more than 100 years ago when we have ongoing genocides in the very PRESENT that are being denied although we have undeniable evidence in high quality footage. It's also quite bizarre when some, rightly so, demand Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, but don't have much to say about Turkey's refusal (among other nations which somewhat economically depend on China) to acknowledge China's genocide of the Uyghurs or God forbid Israel's genocide of the Palestinians.
Anyone who denies one genocide loses any credibility and right to ask others to acknowledge their 'favorite' genocide they like to mention when it suits their interests.
Most of the time the defense will be based upon a false understanding of what really constitutes "genocide". "B-But the population numbers are increasing" - Which might or might not be true, but that's besides the point:
"Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups." - Lemkin
The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
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Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is (at least in France) Armenian Genocide Rememberence Day. It could be a reason there are a few different Armenian stories out there.
Does France have a "Rememberence" day for this too? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_use_of_chemical_weapon...
Unfortunately, not. And neither Spain does, which is a shame. What is the point of your question?
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Facebook has shown themselves completely willing to remove content at the request of the Erdoğan government. If they deplatform critics of Erdoğan, why would they also not be willing to deplatform anything else that Erdoğan does not like, like discussion of the Armenian Genocide? And maybe this is why we should consider the consequences of encouraging deplatforming of people we don't like. My other comment pointing o…
> And maybe this is why we should consider the consequences of encouraging deplatforming of people we don't like. But it's as easy to point to the dire consequences of persisting in amplifying the voices of people spewing hateful rhetoric as it is to point to the people silenced to protect the interests of the powerful. I think treating this as a one-sided problem with an obvious answer does it an injustice.
> But it's as easy to point to the dire consequences of persisting in amplifying the voices of people spewing hateful rhetoric as it is to point to the people silenced to protect the interests of the powerful. I think treating this as a one-sided problem with an obvious answer does it an injustice.
I don't think it is as easy to prove that something has been censored, that's the problem. There is not transparency. Maybe if we could examine exactly what was removed and why, that would be different. But we have normalized and legitimized the opaque and arbitrary removal of political content and historical records.
I also don't think it is so easy to prove direct harm from something not being censored, and certainly not enough to outweigh the harm that accepting censorship brings.
The truth is, when you outsource critical thinking to Facebook, it is not just potentially harmful content they remove. You can't say that you only support deplatforming for people you disagree with, because it will never be implemented that way.
In practice, you either you support freedom of speech, or you support billionaires and dictators arbitrarily removing and editing what we say.
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's extremely sad and it is truth that we, people, are doing horrible things to each other for a long time. I hope you find comfort (and I hope God blesses us with the wisdom to fight against our own internal passions). This shouldn't be about "this nation is bad, this nation is good". (saying it as a bulgarian, we also had complicated history with the Ottomans, but I think we can say we live peacefully with the o…
First of all, thank you. Hi Bulgarian friend! The thing is, there were many nations at play at that time. I have some documents in an archaic CD-ROM about the issue. I don't want to name names, but the number of rifles collected from Armenians during that time is enough to form a small, unorganized army at the area. I don't know if I can dig the images but, they were a lot. Turks and Armenians didn't hate each other,…
Yes: we should be honest about atrocities against turks as well. I admit that it's possible that this happened even in Bulgaria, sadly. And I am sure bulgarian historians hide some of this stuff, the same way probably armenian historians are biased, and turkish are biased
Thank you as well, turkish friend !
However it's hard to deny it's not planned and deliberate: you describe in your own words ethnical cleansing in the best possible case. Maybe many people died, because they were left in bad conditions without help, and this aspect was unintentional? I need to educate myself more, so I'd be happy to see those documents.
I don't doubt about the feeling of love to armenians! However part of love is to want to find the objective truth: repentance is crucial for our human nature. I hope all of us can do that(bulgarians, armenians, turks and everyone)
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's extremely sad and it is truth that we, people, are doing horrible things to each other for a long time. I hope you find comfort (and I hope God blesses us with the wisdom to fight against our own internal passions). This shouldn't be about "this nation is bad, this nation is good". (saying it as a bulgarian, we also had complicated history with the Ottomans, but I think we can say we live peacefully with the o…
First of all, thank you. Hi Bulgarian friend! The thing is, there were many nations at play at that time. I have some documents in an archaic CD-ROM about the issue. I don't want to name names, but the number of rifles collected from Armenians during that time is enough to form a small, unorganized army at the area. I don't know if I can dig the images but, they were a lot. Turks and Armenians didn't hate each other,…
I am sorry for what happened to your family. Armenians did commit some atrocities in response. I don’t condone those. I say this as an Armenian.
The scale of those was small in comparison. That does not negate that the genocide happened, in which the Turk’s goal was to obliterate the Armenians as a people.
WRT the documents you mention, those are probably from the contemporaneous disinformation campaign on the part of the govt. Even at the time many foreign observers noted that the govt was exaggerating the Armenian “threat”.
The claims you are making are thoroughly debunked and not recognized by historians in mainstream academia outside turkey.
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#96It's interesting how some genocides become more politically charged than others. Japan has trouble acknowledging their genocides, but they rarely complain when other countries do. America is generally similar. Germany has conducted a massive campaign to root out genocidal sympathies. But it's particularly surprising with Turkey, because, unlike Japan or the US, the Republic of Turkey replaced the Ottoman Empire by a…
Tangentially I became aware of the Genocide committed against Germans after WWII that the Allies had a hand in, which isn't well known.
I'm looking for a copy of a book about it
Road of Suffering of the Carpathian-Germans 1944-1946
Here's a hint of it from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czec...
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#97As someone with an Armenian dad and last name, I’ve felt some interest in this story and my country’s (US) refusal so far to acknowledge it since learning about it. It’s pretty far removed from me, and I’d probably not live here if my ancestors hadn’t fled the Turks back in the day, but it’s also very sad to see that it’s used as a political token over and over again. Obama promised that he’d be the first sitting pre…
As someone from the SFV, I appreciate and understood completely the Glendale reference. The same thought crossed my mind, which is why is this acknowledgment such an important issue and why now? I agree with you and doubt it is to earn points with a super small (albeit wealthy) constituency. I have never even heard people care about this outside of politicians and the news. Just seems like a very strange hill to die…
On the other hand it might be worth doing just for a single campaign donation from Alexis Ohanian post-Coinbase IPO ;D
It appears that Biden has acknowledged it since my original post, too.
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#98Interesting article, however I couldn't find primary Turkish sources that detailed the reasoning behind the deportations. Did the Turks institute the policy to remove Armenians from within Turkey or to exterminate them?
> I couldn't find primary Turkish sources
The Turkish government doesn't acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. And because it's punishable to do so there might be no "Turkish" sources at all. I use quotes because obviously there are Turkish people who don't deny it happened and some of them might have written about it.
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#99The story here is an age-old struggle of East vs West, and more specifically of Christianity vs Islam. The parallels with the past, centuries before the Genocide, and the present, are clear. This is a battle that will continue. I support the US's long overdue stance on the matter. It is important to remember what it symbolizes. I wished we lived in a kinder, gentler world. But we have atrocities occurring all over th…
One would think some lessons of naive interventionism had been learned by now, especially since you guys just announced a pull out of Afghanistan a week ago, which many could argue was not a successful one.
Re: The Armenian Genocide (1915-16): In Depth
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does France have a "Rememberence" day for this too? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_use_of_chemical_weapon...
Unfortunately, not. And neither Spain does, which is a shame. What is the point of your question?
France is always pontificating about "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and all that kumbaya stuff (which are great ideas, btw), but in practice, some of what they've done in their colonies and their behavior in conflicts is questionable af.
I went to an Argelian restaurant some time ago, and the guy there told me that historically, French soldiers demanded that Argelian women have sex with them, and if they refused they would cut their faces. "Liberté, égalité, fraternité".