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Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

bbc.com

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Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#411

Post by chiph »

0xffff2 wrote: post #398
hulahoof wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine it is illegal to abandon a ship in port

Illegal for whom? Surely it's illegal for the owner, or perhaps the captain at most, but not the crew?

There's a couple of reasons why the crew and officers don't just leave. One is that their employment record will show that they left their ship while their contract was still in force, which given that jobs in the industry are highly desirable will make them unemployable.

And the other is that the port authority wants the ship gone, and not vandalized or becoming a hazard to navigation. So they will require someone to stay on board to maintain it and keep it secure. Which can include getting Immigration to forbid the crew entrance to the country. While they are in port, it's much like being in the secure area of an airport - they're in a gray area and aren't actually in any country. So when that happens, it is illegal for them to leave it.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#412

Post by bluGill »

mekkkkkk wrote: post #376
bluGill wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International salvage law is complex, but essentially no. The ship is stills owned.by someone even when at the bottom of the sea and if you take anything from the ship without permission that is theft. Salvagers work on contract with the owners in most cases. When they don't there are generally big lawsuits because they are entitled for compensation for their work, but if they don't give anything brought up back the…

Very off topic, but does this mean that wrecks from warships lost during, say, WWII are still owned by their respective navies?

Depends. If the Navy lost then the winner might own them. Reciently the remains of WWI ships that Germany scuttled so they couldn't be captured, went on eBay (the ships were intured in an English harbor at the time). They are considered a public attraction, so the owner won't be allowed to do anything other than grant permission to visiting divers.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#413

Post by thaumasiotes »

aidenn0 wrote: post #406
thaumasiotes wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I think it's sufficient to quote the opening of the article verbatim: > The history of capitalism is diverse. The concept of capitalism has many debated roots, but fully[ quantify ] fledged capitalism is generally thought by scholars[ specify ][ weasel words ] to have emerged in Northwestern Europe, especially in Great Britain and the Netherlands, in the 16th to 17th centuries.[ citation needed ] Over the fol…

Nothing you quote suggests that it is a popular opinion among historians that capitalism is an appropriate label for systems used in antiquity though. Marx may have coined the term capitalism to have a term to contrast communism, but it definitely has a large body of theory attached see e.g. Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations." It is probably better to contrast capitalism with socialism though, and classical economi…

> Marx may have coined the term capitalism to have a term to contrast communism, but it definitely has a large body of theory attached see e.g. Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations."

Is anything about that theory specific to any time period? Does any part of it refer to a system of "capitalism"?

Marx, and those following Marx, wrote their works under the banner of "communism". Adam Smith did not write under any banner. He made observations.

> Marx gave capitalism a name to talk about it as a step in the thrust of history, contrasting it with earlier feudalism systems, and to argue that it would inevitably lead to its own destruction while advocating that communism is the logical next step. It wasn't just "anything before communism" even for him.

You're not getting what I'm saying. Marx gave capitalism a name, OK. Did he give it a definition? The whole problem I'm talking about here is that people use the word "capitalism" without having a meaning in mind for it to refer to.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#414

Post by protoman3000 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #401
protoman3000 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately it’s a tragedy of commons situation and in these instances the only solutions are rigorous regulation or internalization of the costs of externalities. Both won’t happen, because the politics behind it are also a tragedy of commons.

Nit on economic dynamics: more a Greesham's Law circumstance (bad or no regulation drives out good) than a tragedy of the commons (uncontained resource allocation leads to global overuse). They're similar, but have some significant and relevant distinctions.

I knew Greshams law in scope of bad money driving out good money. Can you please elaborate more?

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#415

Post by dredmorbius »

protoman3000 wrote: post #414
dredmorbius wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nit on economic dynamics: more a Greesham's Law circumstance (bad or no regulation drives out good) than a tragedy of the commons (uncontained resource allocation leads to global overuse). They're similar, but have some significant and relevant distinctions.

I knew Greshams law in scope of bad money driving out good money. Can you please elaborate more?

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2h63fp/is_gres...

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#416

Post by fennecfoxen »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #397
fennecfoxen wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warehouse workers down in Alabama? Why would you ask them? They didn't want one. It wasn't close at all, either.

Because Amazon moving killed all other local work opportunities, and also because Amazon did not allow workers access to union organizers and information. The case is probably going to go the NRLB which will rule the election illegal.

It wasn't a close thing. It was a blowout, substantially worse than 2-to-1 against. (1,798—738).

Maybe you're right, and there will be lawsuits. That's a far cry from saying that the workers there wanted a union.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#417

Post by goodpoint »

jollybean wrote: post #130

Folks - this is what we are outsourcing and externalizing. When foreign entities are able to bid for a lot less, and pay a lot less, a lot of it has to do with the fact that they will not bother with 'end of life' for ships, or getting insurance, or worrying about the lives of people who are 'expendable'. Those very nice buildings in Dubai come from some nasty labour practices. If every piece of this puzzle from end-…

Responsibility should go together with power.

Who has the power to push for better working conditions, transparency and accountability? Let's see:

- A sailor from poor a countries

- A customer from a wealthy country

- A cash stripped shipping company from a poor country

- A successful and massive company from a wealthy country

- A billionaire owning such company

- A politician in the same country

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#418

Post by LorenPechtel »

lolinder wrote: post #193
novok wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fault here is ultimately with egypt. They were not letting him leave, they took his passport and not even letting him get 'deported' back to his home country. This is not from outsourcing, this is Kafkaesque bureaucracy created by Egypt itself.

Egypt definitely has fault here, but the company that owns the ship could have gotten the ship out of there if they cared about him at all. Yes, it might have been expensive, but I would expect a US based company to have rescued him within weeks of this situation starting, not years.

They didn't have money they were *allowed* to spend. The problem lies with the courts who were more interested in protecting the creditors than the crew.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#419

Post by jollybean »

unishark wrote: post #313
worldsayshi wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels slightly more true than the comment you responded to. But I feel that important aspects are left out. I don't feel like I can make much justice for those aspects but here's my two cents: Selling oil on the free market disproportionately benefits those that own the means to process and resell it further. Or rather, those that ultimately coordinate global oil logistics. The global fossil fuel market doesn't…

> Selling oil on the free market disproportionately benefits those that own the means to process and resell it further. What is the basis for this comparison? Compare the profit margins of a gas station (tiny) versus the profit margin of a company that needs to purchase fuel to operate a factory (could be anything). Or for that matter a company that needs products produced at one of those factories (the rest of us).…

Those with exclusive access to the commodity make a lot of money. The Saudi Government, which is actually a 'family', are the richest 'family' on earth by leagues. That's there 'the profit is'.
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