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Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

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Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#401

Folks - this is what we are outsourcing and externalizing. When foreign entities are able to bid for a lot less, and pay a lot less, a lot of it has to do with the fact that they will not bother with 'end of life' for ships, or getting insurance, or worrying about the lives of people who are 'expendable'. Those very nice buildings in Dubai come from some nasty labour practices. If every piece of this puzzle from end-…

Ultimately it’s a tragedy of commons situation and in these instances the only solutions are rigorous regulation or internalization of the costs of externalities. Both won’t happen, because the politics behind it are also a tragedy of commons.

Nit on economic dynamics: more a Greesham's Law circumstance (bad or no regulation drives out good) than a tragedy of the commons (uncontained resource allocation leads to global overuse).

They're similar, but have some significant and relevant distinctions.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The wealthy exploiting the poor predates capitalism by 10s of thousands of years. I feel like in order to make this claim, you'd need a pretty detailed definition of what "capitalism" is.

Not that Wikipedia is the definitive source of knowledge, but it indicates capitalism forming around the 16th century[1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism

I mean, I think it's sufficient to quote the opening of the article verbatim:

> The history of capitalism is diverse. The concept of capitalism has many debated roots, but fully[quantify] fledged capitalism is generally thought by scholars[specify][weasel words] to have emerged in Northwestern Europe, especially in Great Britain and the Netherlands, in the 16th to 17th centuries.[citation needed] Over the following centuries, capital accumulated by a variety of methods, at a variety of scales, and became associated[by whom?] with much variation in the concentration of wealth and economic power. Capitalism gradually became the dominant economic system throughout the world.[1][2](subscription required)[need quotation to verify][3][need quotation to verify] Much[quantify] of the history of the past 500 years is concerned with the development of capitalism in its various forms.

> It is an ongoing debate within the fields of economics and sociology as to what the past, current and future stages of capitalism are.

This does not leave me filled with confidence that people know what they mean when they mention "capitalism".

The problem is that there are two broad paradigms of what "capitalism" should mean:

1. Whatever the United States does.

This is what most people seem to be talking about when they talk about "capitalism", but it leaves something to be desired on theoretical grounds. Many aspects of it are not particularly economic.

2. An economic system defined... somehow. Mostly by constrast with "communism", which -- unlike "capitalism" -- has a large body of theory attached.

This is what people want to claim they are talking about. It is more or less conceptually incoherent, being defined only as the absence of policies covered by the term "communism". But all of those negative policies are very old, historically.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I piss in bottles and on the sides of roads on road trips. Sometimes daily, depending on the length of the trip. You make it sound like some great injustice. It's just pissing in a bottle, who cares? It's pretty offensive to compare this to being held prisoner on a ship.

Doing something freely of choice with no (or very mimial) downside risk, and doing it at the penalty of losing ones jobs, whilst the employer denies the practice , have substantial daylight between them.

I can only assume you have some very deep seated issues around urine and urination? With a totally straight face, you're comparing pissing in bottles with being imprisoned for four years. Amazon could demand full bottles at close of workday, and then pour it on your head, and this comparison would still be farcical. Recalibrate your outrage.

I'm going to blow your mind: RV toilets are just giant bottles with levers and valves.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also say that the relationship between the average 10th-centry peasant and his feudal lord strikes me as a lot less "exploitative" than the typical employee-employer relationship today.

How is a two-way, 'at will', relationship more exploitative than one which comes with legal penalties for choosing to complete your job? (a job that you were born into, I might add)

"At will" is vastly insufficient to generate an equality of power.

The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment.

-- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...

Under the feudal system, lords had at least a nominal obligation to see to the welfare of their charges. I'm not claiming the relationship was otherwise equal, but that sense of obligation is now all but wholly absent.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvote me all you want it's not not true. Rich people don't exist without exploiting the poor; so too with countries. I'm not sorry if you're wealthy and this is hurting too close to home, better live with it if you also want to be so wealthy.

The wealthy exploiting the poor predates capitalism by 10s of thousands of years.

In which case one might observe that capitalism merely perpetuates that injustice.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that Wikipedia is the definitive source of knowledge, but it indicates capitalism forming around the 16th century[1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism

I mean, I think it's sufficient to quote the opening of the article verbatim: > The history of capitalism is diverse. The concept of capitalism has many debated roots, but fully[ quantify ] fledged capitalism is generally thought by scholars[ specify ][ weasel words ] to have emerged in Northwestern Europe, especially in Great Britain and the Netherlands, in the 16th to 17th centuries.[ citation needed ] Over the fol…

Nothing you quote suggests that it is a popular opinion among historians that capitalism is an appropriate label for systems used in antiquity though. Marx may have coined the term capitalism to have a term to contrast communism, but it definitely has a large body of theory attached see e.g. Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations."

It is probably better to contrast capitalism with socialism though, and classical economics with communist theory. Not all capitalists ascribe to classical economics, just like not all socialists ascribe to communist theory.

Marx gave capitalism a name to talk about it as a step in the thrust of history, contrasting it with earlier feudalism systems, and to argue that it would inevitably lead to its own destruction while advocating that communism is the logical next step. It wasn't just "anything before communism" even for him.

Keynes, Hayek, and Smith all have a common thread on their belief in the market, despite the fact that they would in many cases advocate for very different policies.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing something freely of choice with no (or very mimial) downside risk, and doing it at the penalty of losing ones jobs, whilst the employer denies the practice , have substantial daylight between them.

I can only assume you have some very deep seated issues around urine and urination? With a totally straight face, you're comparing pissing in bottles with being imprisoned for four years . Amazon could demand full bottles at close of workday, and then pour it on your head, and this comparison would still be farcical. Recalibrate your outrage. I'm going to blow your mind: RV toilets are just giant bottles with levers…

I am comparing the case of urinating on a roadtrip as a means to save a few minutes on arrival time, with a significant labour force being obligated to do so under terms and conditions of employment whilst their employer loudly and publicly denies this fact. (The fact that the employer later retracted the denail doesn't obviate the predicate clause.)

Your reading of my statement is far from the mark, curiously so.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If I had to name an economic system where ordinary people were made to wait for a long time due to pointless and arbitrary decisions made by a bureaucracy that doesn't care about them, capitalism would not be the first thing that came to mind.

The system you appear to prefer intersects with the system you appear to criticise, and extracts profits from it whilst perpetuating human abuses.

That seems to indicate a problem with the system you appear to prefer.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have had my brother dinghy out to me one of the passes.... I guess though since this is in a major shipping lane you'd probably get taken out by a ship.

I can imagine you can’t just use a 20L jerry can to fill her up

I meant to escape on the Dinghy with my brother.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing something freely of choice with no (or very mimial) downside risk, and doing it at the penalty of losing ones jobs, whilst the employer denies the practice , have substantial daylight between them.

I can only assume you have some very deep seated issues around urine and urination? With a totally straight face, you're comparing pissing in bottles with being imprisoned for four years . Amazon could demand full bottles at close of workday, and then pour it on your head, and this comparison would still be farcical. Recalibrate your outrage. I'm going to blow your mind: RV toilets are just giant bottles with levers…

Please start peeing in bottles daily as part of your job, and let your co-workers know about, note their reaction. This discussion is about unacceptable work hazards, not exclusively about being imprisoned on a ship.
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