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Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

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Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#181

Post by brobdingnagians »

mullingitover wrote: post #95
PostOnce wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, on day 19 three of them are clusters of cells, how about day 280? How about year 5? I think the argument is that a majority of people would find it unethical to continue to develop viable embryos, and even more unethical to conduct research on them were they to mature.

What if we gave a dog a human brain? What if we gave a robot a human consciousness? Just offering some more scenarios that didn't happen.

An interesting short story about an android child who desperately wants to be loved is "Supertoys Last All Summer Long".

Even a dog with a dog brain shouldn't be subjected to arbitrary experimentation and pain. If it is sentient, then it should be treated with respect. A robot with consciousness should also be treated with respect, and if it wants love then it deserves love.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#182

Post by Sol- »

cercatrova wrote: post #136
diveanon wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok Dr. Mengele. This is an extremely naive take that ignores some dark history.

Mengele's experiments didn't really advance science, most of the experimental data was useless after the Allies examined them. So it's not necessarily the same thing.

Yeah, if only he had been more scientifically rigorous about his inhumane experiments, then this all would have been perfectly acceptable.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#183

Post by cercatrova »

Sol- wrote: post #182
cercatrova wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mengele's experiments didn't really advance science, most of the experimental data was useless after the Allies examined them. So it's not necessarily the same thing.

Yeah, if only he had been more scientifically rigorous about his inhumane experiments, then this all would have been perfectly acceptable.

Indeed, it would have been better than the current historical scenario.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#184

Post by junippor »

Fluff aside, here's the actual science:

> ( ... ) researchers from the Salk Institute and Kunming University of Science and Technology ( ... )

> In lab tests in culture, the team started with monkey blastocysts. Six days after fertilization they were injected with 25 human extended pluripotent stem (hEPS) cells, which contribute to the tissue as the embryo develops.

> And sure enough, when the researchers examined the batch of embryos 24 hours later, they detected human cells in 132 of them. After 10 days, there were 103 of these chimeric embryos remaining, but by day 19 only three still survived. After that, the embryos were terminated before they developed any further.

Saved you a click.

I'm guessing that the reason why this is called a chimera and not just a blob of cells from two different species is that the number of human cells increased from 25 to 132. But this seems like a very low bar to me...? I'm guessing that if you keep cells which you just extracted from a living organism and keep them in a comfortable bath, division might occur before they quickly die out.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#185

Post by catlifeonmars »

deertick1 wrote: post #58
dqpb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes I disagree on two parts: 1. I think it’s immoral to oppose the creation of sentient beings. 2. If we create sentient beings, those beings will have been created by a natural process, because we (and our actions) are natural processes.

Interesting points. Personally, not sure I agree with 1. Lots of scenarios where creating a sentient being would be bad - like if that being can only experience endless pain. On point 2 : well you got me there. Let me be more precise : its not the "natural processes" part that is important, but my point was rather that this type of hybridizing results in the creation of organisms which have not been time tested and w…

Just to be clear about what evolution optimizes for: It’s propagation of genetic information.

Evolution is not kind. And evolution doesn’t optimize for happiness or even health beyond reproductive.

Evolution has produced plenty of humans who plead for death. We treat it as a disorder and try to fix it.

I’m wholeheartedly on board with (1) not creating more suffering and (2) reducing suffering. However I’m not convinced that evolution does better on either of those two fronts than empathetic humans.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#186

Post by mypalmike »

bpodgursky wrote: post #79
throwaway5752 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alex Jones claimed 1) that the US Air Force attacked Texas with weather control weapons 2) that the majority of frogs in the US are now gay because the government is intentionally turning people homosexual for population control 3) that the most monstrous shooting in my lifetime, Sandy Hook, was a false flag and the bereaved families of the murdered first graders were crisis actors. Alex Jones is an awful person. He…

The frog thing is interesting because there's a kernel of truth there; we're releasing an enormous number of endocrine disrupters into the environment (PVC, BPA, etc, etc etc), which is wreaking havoc on both animal animal and human animal hormonal balances. Obviously it's not an intentional government plot... but that doesn't mean we _aren't_ "turning frogs gay".

Conspiracy theories usually start with a kernel of truth. And then a combination of misunderstanding, paranoia, and intentional disinformation fills them with heavy amounts of untruth.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#187

Post by axguscbklp »

mullingitover wrote: post #75
themgt wrote: post #60

These chimeras pave the way for more accurate models of human biology and disease The goal, the team says, is to make better models for studying biological development, evolution, disease progression and treatments. "As we are unable to conduct certain types of experiments in humans, it is essential that we have better models to more accurately study and understand human biology and disease," Interestingly, the revie…

Did you finish reading the article? > After 10 days, there were 103 of these chimeric embryos remaining, but by day 19 only three still survived. After that, the embryos were terminated before they developed any further. Clusters of cells can't be 'tortured in a lab,' there are plenty of legitimate problems in the world to be outraged about but this really isn't one of them.

>Clusters of cells can't be 'tortured in a lab,'

There is actually no way to know whether this is true. About all you can justifiably say is something like, "if it turns out that clusters of cells can experience suffering, well... we are already probably causing suffering anyway all the time to chickens and cows and who knows to what else, so it would not really be much of a change".

It is tempting to say that something that has no nervous system cannot suffer, but such an attitude is not scientifically justified. It is just folk speculation.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#188

Post by Tade0 »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #73
sebmellen wrote: post #63

I am by no means whatsoever an Alex Jones listener or fan. But he's been laughed at for proclaiming that human/animal hybrids are being "developed" for some time now (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa9jXkVpnw0 , for example). It's scary to see this article because it's essentially "proving" Alex Jones right. This is a very bad precedent. The issue at hand is serious, but it's obscured because of the comedic/craz…

Alex Jones claimed 1) that the US Air Force attacked Texas with weather control weapons 2) that the majority of frogs in the US are now gay because the government is intentionally turning people homosexual for population control 3) that the most monstrous shooting in my lifetime, Sandy Hook, was a false flag and the bereaved families of the murdered first graders were crisis actors. Alex Jones is an awful person. He…

I never understood 2).

Doesn't the global economy essentially hinge on an ever growing supply of workforce?

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#189

Post by fighterpilot »

warent wrote: post #158
scoopertrooper wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does a thing become a human-thing? Imagine there was a way to copy a few human genes over to a mouse so that its immune system more closely resembled a human, but it was still, in every other respect, a mouse. Would it be a human-mouse?

It's a great discussion to have when the matter at hand is that subtle. Frankensteining together human stem cells and monkey blastocysts until something works is pretty far from surgically selecting specific genes. From the article: The announcement of the new chimeras will no doubt be labelled “unnatural” or “playing God” by some people – but the same could be said about many scientific breakthroughs. An iPhone is u…

  "We need a better understanding of consciousness"
I disagree. A small lump of cells is not more conscious or capable of suffering than a cow which most of us accept being killed for a steak.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#190

Post by [deleted] »

scoopertrooper wrote: post #130
halfjoking wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. Ear-mouse wants to hear the answer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1945000/images/_1949073_mouse_...

Ear mouse cant hear the answer because its additional ear is just some cow cartliage that's been molded to resemble an ear.

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