Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab • Hacker News Board

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#51

Post by ArtWomb » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 12:59 AM UTC

Any moral quandaries may already be rendered moot by superior biotechnology. For any given use case of interest: gene therapies, disease modelling, cell transplantation, etc. High-efficiency computer assisted cellular conversion of stem cells is the holy grail. Recall, you don't need to replace entire organs. Just the diseased sectors. And if in vivo cellular reprogramming can be targeted to organs with historically lacking regenerative capability, base astrocytes into fresh plastic neurons, for example. It would unlock longevity beyond the mere physical ;)

IRENE: computer-guided design tool to increase efficiency of cellular conversions

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21801-4.pdf

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#52

Post by dqpb » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

deertick1 wrote: post #44

0_gravitas wrote: post #27

Awesome, love this bit mentioned: ``` “It is sometimes argued that … [the creation of part-human chimeras] will undermine an important moral view: that it matters, morally, which species we belong to,” the report reads. ”This argument assumes that we ought to preserve the view that boundaries between species are fixed, natural, and morally relevant, with full moral status reserved exclusively for humans. Yet even if…

Wow what a ridiculously asinine and misleading comment (the qouted comment, not the HN comment). The moral reprehensibility of such an experiment is not the result of humans treating any other species as lesser, morally- rather, it is because it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes. To bring a sentient being into the world which is created by human engineering proces…

> it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes

I disagree on two parts:

1. I think it’s immoral to oppose the creation of sentient beings.

2. If we create sentient beings, those beings will have been created by a natural process, because we (and our actions) are natural processes.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#53

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

Causality1 wrote: post #12

It's surprising how little legislation there is on this topic despite long being a trope in fiction.

[deleted]

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#54

Post by edoceo » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:09 AM UTC

throwitaway1235 wrote: post #42

Layman question. Is it to be assumed that doing what the article suggests between human and pig, is much more difficult if trying to merge a human and a spider?

only works with radioactive spiders

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#55

Post by deertick1 » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

mb_72 wrote: post #50

deertick1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow what a ridiculously asinine and misleading comment (the qouted comment, not the HN comment). The moral reprehensibility of such an experiment is not the result of humans treating any other species as lesser, morally- rather, it is because it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes. To bring a sentient being into the world which is created by human engineering proces…

"...create something which is horribly mutated, fucked up genetically, and experiences only pain for its entire life." 'God' does this all the time already. Friends of mine recently had a baby girl; she is missing part of one of her chromosomes. The family is very religious, and is being torn apart trying to understand how their 'loving God' could have done such a thing. So this 'morality' you speak of is making a tr…

Eh like I said I was not as concise as I would like to have been in my comment :

IVF is not creating a completely new, engineered organism. Not really what I am talking about.

And man, the idea that religion has no place in the modern world would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. Religion serves a veokry important role in society and we abandon it at our peril.

I am sorry to hear about your friend, but this is really not comparable to engineering a new unique organism. And I'm sure her pain would be just as great or worse without a god in her life. Christians realize that there are trials in the world. Re: the book of Job.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#56

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #46

deertick1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow what a ridiculously asinine and misleading comment (the qouted comment, not the HN comment). The moral reprehensibility of such an experiment is not the result of humans treating any other species as lesser, morally- rather, it is because it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes. To bring a sentient being into the world which is created by human engineering proces…

So, are trans folks immoral? Organ transplants? Prosthetics? Where do you draw the line?

While I'm not sure I entirely agree with the point OP made, it's pretty clear that 'creating a sentient being' is the line being crossed. Modding a being already in existence is not at all comparable.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#57

Post by deertick1 » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:14 AM UTC

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #46

deertick1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow what a ridiculously asinine and misleading comment (the qouted comment, not the HN comment). The moral reprehensibility of such an experiment is not the result of humans treating any other species as lesser, morally- rather, it is because it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes. To bring a sentient being into the world which is created by human engineering proces…

So, are trans folks immoral? Organ transplants? Prosthetics? Where do you draw the line?

Are trans folks immoral : No I don't care what someone choses to do with their own body, that's their business.

Organ transplants :

No, this is a life saving (or condition improving) medical procedure. Same for prosthetics.

I am referring only to experiments where the outcome might be the creation of a new species of sentient being. Pretty much I'm drawing the line at exactly the posted experiment.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#58

Post by deertick1 » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:18 AM UTC

dqpb wrote: post #52

deertick1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow what a ridiculously asinine and misleading comment (the qouted comment, not the HN comment). The moral reprehensibility of such an experiment is not the result of humans treating any other species as lesser, morally- rather, it is because it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes. To bring a sentient being into the world which is created by human engineering proces…

> it is immoral to create something sentient which has not been created by natural processes I disagree on two parts: 1. I think it’s immoral to oppose the creation of sentient beings. 2. If we create sentient beings, those beings will have been created by a natural process, because we (and our actions) are natural processes.

Interesting points. Personally, not sure I agree with 1. Lots of scenarios where creating a sentient being would be bad - like if that being can only experience endless pain.

On point 2 : well you got me there. Let me be more precise : its not the "natural processes" part that is important, but my point was rather that this type of hybridizing results in the creation of organisms which have not been time tested and weathered the refining pressures of evolution. We have no gaurantees of the probabability of a successful organism - could be, as I said, some fucked up abomination which only exists to plead for death. Quite tragic in my view if this is the outcome.

I just think we'd better not even go there.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#59

Post by nvrspyx » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

deertick1 wrote: post #55

mb_72 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...create something which is horribly mutated, fucked up genetically, and experiences only pain for its entire life." 'God' does this all the time already. Friends of mine recently had a baby girl; she is missing part of one of her chromosomes. The family is very religious, and is being torn apart trying to understand how their 'loving God' could have done such a thing. So this 'morality' you speak of is making a tr…

Eh like I said I was not as concise as I would like to have been in my comment : IVF is not creating a completely new, engineered organism. Not really what I am talking about. And man, the idea that religion has no place in the modern world would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. Religion serves a veokry important role in society and we abandon it at our peril. I am sorry to hear about your friend, but this is re…

As someone that doesn't abhor religion, the following isn't meant as argumentative, but rather curiosity:

> Religion serves a very important role in society and we abandon it at our peril.

What "important role" might that be? I don't see the necessity of religion and don't think there's anything inherent of religions that can't be supplemented by the surrounding culture.

Re: Human-monkey chimera embryos created in lab

#60

Post by themgt » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:22 AM UTC

These chimeras pave the way for more accurate models of human biology and disease

The goal, the team says, is to make better models for studying biological development, evolution, disease progression and treatments. "As we are unable to conduct certain types of experiments in humans, it is essential that we have better models to more accurately study and understand human biology and disease,"

Interestingly, the review paper suggests that perhaps the creation of human-animal chimeras might help people realize that humans don’t necessarily have any higher moral status than any other creature.

Yeah sorry but fuck off with this. If your explicit goal is to create living organisms for medical research / donor organs that would be unethical to perform in humans, don't turn around and justify it with "maybe our monkeyman will increase people's concern with animal welfare!" If it did then we would turn around and ban your research and/or just do it in humans directly.

Frankly I'd find it a lot more ethical to figure out how to grow a brainless human clone for these purposes than a sentient hu-monkey that can be tortured in a lab.